Will King - Design Engineer

Sam Huckaby: [00:00:00] yeah. So thanks for coming on

Will King: Yeah. Happy to do it.

Sam Huckaby: and agreeing to talk to me, someone that no one's heard of. Um, so I guess the place we're starting with all these is, um, kind of how old were you, where were you, what were you doing the first time you were introduced to programming

Will King: the first time that I was introduced to programming was in college. Uh, so I went to college for industrial design, which is like designing physical products. And, uh, as part of like our program, we have to build a, like a portfolio. And at the time, like our class was basically like, Hey, here's how to do a print portfolio.

Like how's here's how to lay everything out and how to, um, like. Do a really nice book portfolio. Uh, but this was also like around the time when this was like 20, I guess 2013 ish, 2014 ish. Um, when we were starting to [00:01:00] get into building out our portfolios and like by that point, like most everyone was like online.

Uh, for, for this job role. And I was like, well, I want to make like an online portfolio and I have always had like a high, um, bias towards like customization, like wanting things to be done the way that I want to do them visually. And so like there were sites like Behance and Dribble back then, not as much, but like Behance was like the big one, um, where.

You could post your work and be able to say like, Hey, here's my portfolio, but they didn't really allow you to kind of tell like a full visual story between all of your products. It was just like, Hey, here's like a grid of things. So, um, I was just like, I want to make this look the way I want this to look.

Um, and so I like found some bootstrap template. From some website that was like 15 bucks and they were like, it's super easy to [00:02:00] customize and that was like my first introduction to code. I remember opening it up and seeing all the bootstrap classes and all of the HTML tags and just being like. I don't know what any of it was just, it was just HTML.

And I was just like, this is complete nonsense. And I just remember like, uh, like searching, um, like I didn't even have like code editor, you know, like, I just like opened it up in like a text file or whatever, and just like find and replace the words. I was like, I like how this one looks. Let's just find and replace like words and like image links and stuff.

Um, yeah. And it was so bad. But yeah, that was, I think, the first time I got introduced to it.

Sam Huckaby: Alright, so, that answers a different question than I usually ask, so you've, your degree is computer adjacent, I

guess?

Will King: Uh, I don't know. I don't know if I'd define it as computer adjacent. So it's very, it's a design. Um, you do, I mean, you use computers like, uh, there's a lot of like 3D [00:03:00] modeling. That goes into industrial design, um, but it's a very physical design. Like you're building models, uh, you're modeling how things feel.

You're doing interviews to understand how people use things, which has been extremely useful in my career, my career. Um, just having that background, but. It was like in no way, shape or form, like it did not prepare me to like look at the code and be like, Oh yeah, this makes, this makes sense, but it was like really good.

It was good for like problems like thinking through like problem solving, um, but not, not necessarily computers. Um, that came later.

Sam Huckaby: it was just like you had to use

Will King: Yes, you had to use them, but if you asked me how to, like, what made them work, I couldn't have told you anything about it.

Sam Huckaby: gotcha, gotcha. So with that as the definition, um, is it safe to say that your parents, your family, you don't have any, like, programmers in your

Will King: none. Not even, I don't even think I knew anybody growing [00:04:00] up that did any coding or anything. Like, I did not know what, because I, I think it was, um, I think the reason why is, like, there was a generation, maybe not even a whole generation, but, like, I missed the edit my myspace group, uh, by about like five years, I would say, give or take so like

Sam Huckaby: Yeah. Yeah.

Will King: the time that I got around to like using social media using a computer, things were no longer like in that like customize everything.

Way that they had done it. And I kind of came into it when like Facebook was starting to blow up for like a lot of people. Um, and I think that my space was like a good introduction for a lot of people. I think that's why you hear like a lot of people who are engineers actually had like a music background because like all the musicians had a MySpace and wanted to customize it to the nth degree.

So they like just by nature learned HTML and CSS because they wanted to customize their MySpace [00:05:00] page. Um, but yeah, no, I missed that. So growing up, I didn't really have any. exposure to like software engineering other than like, Oh, that I live, I grew up in Huntsville, Alabama, um, which for people who don't know is like where all, um, the defense contractors are.

And so it's like a whole lot of like embedded systems and a lot of like Java and, uh, like Fortran and all the horrible, the horrible languages that we talk about now. But, um, so that's like, that's the only thing that I knew about. I wasn't like, Like, Oh yeah, you like, you grow up, you'd be a defense contractor if you do software and you build like real embedded systems for defense work.

Sam Huckaby: Nice. Okay, so no, no real programming, it's funny, like, I didn't, I don't think I ever really considered MySpace, like, much of a catalyst, at least not for me, and I was in the MySpace generation, but everyone, single person that I've [00:06:00] talked to so far, I think, has

Will King: Really? That's really funny.

Sam Huckaby: that's

Will King: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: Good to know. Whoever bought Myspace, you guys are onto something.

Will King: Just do a hard pivot to tech education, teaching people how to code.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, exactly. So your first project, right? You're building this, this portfolio's digital portfolio. Um, did you, do you feel like doing that made you want to get more into software? Or do you think that was

like more of a barrier?

Will King: Um, that, that didn't get me into the writing of like the, the code and stuff, but it definitely got me into like. Oh, this is like a fun medium to design for. Uh, so after that I got like very interested in like, okay, there are two reasons. One is like, I thought this was very interesting in two was like around that time is when I met my, uh, now wife, uh, we have three kids.[00:07:00]

And at the time we had like, just started dating, but I like knew immediately. I was like, This is the girl, like she's the one I know she is. Uh, and she was getting a, uh, elementary education degree. And I knew like, There's no chance, uh, that, like, if I want to have a good industrial design job, you're gonna have to move to, like, a really, at the time, like, San Francisco, uh, New York, maybe Atlanta, they're still, it's still not that great for industrial design, but, like, it was like, you've got to travel to, like, Somewhere big because it's physical products like you need to be working physically with the materials in a space with a team at the same as with like software and digital products and I knew like if I wanted to have like the cool job doing that.

then I'd have to move. Um, and I always knew I wanted to have like a good job, a cool job. Um, my first job [00:08:00] out of college was like doing 3D modeling for cherry picker trucks, like bucket trucks, electrical trucks in Birmingham, Alabama. Um, and that was like the best job in the state of Alabama that you could possibly get as an industrial designer.

So, um, I had already kind of like got. And I like within like a couple months, I was just like, Oh my goodness. Like, this is just like going to, to like work every day and just building Legos. But it's like the same, like you're building the same Lego set over and over and over, which is like fun for a little bit.

And then it gets like very tedious. Um, so like during college, I knew, okay, like I need to do something where like, I can work for a cool company, like a cool job, something that like feels Like enjoyable for my career from anywhere in Alabama. Um, because I know like, we're going to stay in Alabama. We're going to stay close to family.

And so that's what got me interested in exploring like design for the web, like website design. Uh, [00:09:00] and that, that is what kind of like catalyzed my, like, let's get into the web, um, and into website design. And then, Um, there's some, there's some stories in my early days of website design. Um, but that's what also got me into website development was like, after kind of getting a few projects under my belt, the worst part about it was like trying to find somebody who, as I mentioned, like I have a high bias towards like wanting things to look the way that I want them designed and they, the developers just like, didn't get it.

They were not. getting the designs right. Um, you know, they were, they just would miss the details or they'd push back and say something was impossible. And I'd be like, okay, fine. Um, and so like, I just decided, well, let's just learn how to do that side. Like, let's just learn how to do that too. And then I'll just get to design it and build it.

Uh, and so I did, that's, that's what like, [00:10:00] Got me into, uh, the development side was just so that I could build the things that I enjoyed designing.

Sam Huckaby: I like that. I also feel like, I don't know, that's always such a terrible excuse. If you tell your designer that it's not possible,

Will King: Yes. I mean, it's like what I've built my entire career on basically. Um, you know, they just came out with like a actual title for it recently, apparently. Um, but like, uh, design engineers, you know, that's like my entire career has been a design engineer, except we didn't call them design engineers. It just, I was just like an engineer who cared about design.

Um, or like a designer who could do engineering, you know, like, um, there is, to me, there's like two sides of building a product. There is being able to build like a scalable system, which I talk, I like, think about it as like, there are, there are engineers who are really good at understanding the computer's viewpoint.

[00:11:00] Uh, and then there are really good engineers who understand the users and point like viewpoint and like the really, really good engineers are the people who can switch between the two. Uh, I've always been throughout my career, someone who just, naturally understands users viewpoints on software. And I think that comes from, you know, my industrial design background where like majority of the curriculum is just understanding how people use products so that you can design a better product.

Um, I think digital design misses a lot of that. And like software misses a lot of that because like, you don't sit there and have to like watch how people like physically interact with something. And there are tools that try to help do that, but like, it's easier to just ignore, but like with a physical product, if you ignore how people use your physical product, like good luck, you know, so it was like, it was like a very important part of the curriculum and it just got like ingrained into like my foundation.

And so that's kind of just been [00:12:00] like. What has thankfully been like a very unique part of, of my career and what I've been able to kind of lean into to like set me apart and continue to find success throughout my career with new roles and new jobs is that I've kind of got that foundation in my pocket that a lot of people don't.

So

Sam Huckaby: I like the angle of industrial design. So we'll probably try and more about that as we go to. your first role out of college, you were doing bucket trucks

or you're designing. cherry picker trucks in SolidWorks, which is a three 3D modeling program. Yeah,

not not technically

software. I feel like 3d

modeling still no, no,

Will King: it's a little software. It's very cool. Um, right at the end of when I was there, I started getting into, Programmatic modeling, uh, which is like basically like you define [00:13:00] parts and you can just change variables in a prompt and it automatically builds out a part based on like changing variables, which is like basically.

Just creating functions for 3D modeling. Um, which at the time just felt like the most crazy thing I'd ever done in my life. Cause it was just like, this is nuts! Like I just changed this number and this thing changes on the screen! Um, so like that helped be kind of, that was like a little playground for some of the work.

Um, that I was starting to get into, for sure.

Sam Huckaby: where do you go from this cherry picker design job? Do you go into

software next? Or where's what's next? So, yes, so I go into software next. And The way this kind of worked was it was kind of funny. Um, one thing I always talk about is like a bunch of other people type that people call it like luck surface area. Um, I kind of define it a lot of times as serendipity where it's, there's like this Venn diagram where like, there's this big [00:14:00] circle.

Will King: That's the amount of effort that you're putting in and the amount of effort you're putting into like, building it. people seeing your work. And then there's this other circle that's like opportunities. And the smaller the circle is of you putting yourself out there and the work that you're doing, then like the smaller chance you have of overlapping with that opportunity.

So, uh, the way I think about it is like the more like, you can be incredible. But you're not going to overlap with opportunity unless you're doing the work of like growing how much people see the work that you're doing. And while I was in college, um, there was a, you know, like I was doing, like I was in college, like I had all my coursework, I was doing industrial design, like I had like going to hang out with friends, I had pickup basketball, all this stuff.

Um, but I had started really getting into. This design thing, this web design thing. And I saw this little card on [00:15:00] some board, uh, on the campus that was like looking for app designer and like. I'd never designed an app before. Um, but I was just like, this is what I want to do. So like, boom, like plucked it called the guy and was like, why not just try this on top of everything else that I have going on?

Um, and so I designed, I ended up designing two apps, uh, for him. Uh, that were like, you know, he was a student too. Like he didn't like, we'd both just kind of like. Let's just do this together. This seems fun. Um, designed one that was based on like being able to trade and sell, uh, used textbooks with students.

So student to student textbook trading and selling, um, outside of Craigslist. And then the other one was like a little like game that was just like a memory. Like maze type game. Uh, so I designed both of those and like, they never went anywhere, but I now had two designs that I would not have had or [00:16:00] would have had to come up with on my own, uh, that I put into a portfolio and we had a career fair.

And the career fair is like for like engineering and like industrial type jobs, but I was like, man, I really like this web design stuff. So I put. Those designs in like the very back of my portfolio. So I was like, I wouldn't go to them. Um, but I like just had them there because I just like, I was so proud of them.

Uh, and I went through this whole career fair. I found like maybe two or three people who were like industry interested in industrial design. That's where I actually got my first job. They were there at the career fair. Um, but before I left, there was this one table that I was like, all right, I'm just going to talk to one more table before I leave.

And you know, I'm showing through the portfolio and I like turn one page too far at the end. And like the app design stuff's there. I was like, Oh, that's just like a little app design thing that I did. Um, and the woman that I was like showing it to was like, wait one second, can you, can you [00:17:00] just like, I'm about to be done here.

Could you just like hang out for like five minutes? Um, I'd love to look at that stuff. And she actually finished up talking with some other people. It was at the very end of the career fair. And then I went back over and she was like, okay, this is not for like my job job. Okay. But I do like I build like businesses on my own time and I've been looking for somebody who does like design and I'd love to look at your stuff and she looked through it.

She's like, this stuff is all like really good. Like, would you like to do projects with me? Um, and I was like, absolutely. So like, that was like my first like instance of like serendipity, like having that like surface area of luck. Yeah. appear in my life. Uh, and like, we still have a relationship to this day.

We don't really do projects too much anymore because we both kind of moved, moved on. Um, but I did maybe like five or six different projects, um, throughout my career with her that had like major impacts. The [00:18:00] first three, like, got me, you know, Into like, okay, I'm now done design and now I want to get into development.

Like that was because of like her sending me work to do. Um, and so I'd been at the cherry picker truck, um, company for about a year. Uh, And, um, about that time I had realized like, man, I really want to get into like doing this design stuff more full time. I think I can get a remote job. Um, I'm trying to, I've been trying to learn code for like four, four or so months at this time, uh, from a site called Skill Crush.

And so I just started looking for jobs, um, remote specifically jobs that were going to be in like the design space. Uh, and I ended up landing on. Um, so the skill crush, uh, place that I was learning how to develop from, I saw this job opening that was for a teaching assistant position for the design course, and it was [00:19:00] remote.

Um, and I was like, well, if I can just pick up some more projects, like it seems to work with, um, uh, her name's Martha. Martha seems to have projects. If I can get projects with her, I bet I can keep getting projects. Uh, and so I did that. Uh, and then I was like, if I can get this part time job doing this, like teaching assistant stuff, like that should be enough stable income at my age, you know, to like, be able to like make the jump.

And so I went out for the position for like the teaching assistant position and they came back and were like, wait a second, are you the Wilking that like took our courses? And I was like, Yes, like, okay, like maybe they just don't have a ton of people like they just recognize my name like I can't imagine there's just a ton of Wilkings taking like development courses at their company and they're like we share your projects around the company because like they're designed so well like I was doing the programming [00:20:00] courses and they were just like, yeah, like, everyone just does the bare minimum to make the thing work.

And like, your stuff just always looked so good. Because it was like, I was, the reason I was learning the development was because I wanted to be able to make the designs that I was like, coming up with. And so like, every time I did one of the projects. In the course, it was like, well, I'm going to design it first.

Cause that's the whole point of this. And then I need to see if I can actually make the design I imagined. And I didn't really think about it from their perspective. They were like, you're like way over qualified for like the assistant position. Like, would you just like to be our design instructor? Uh, and I was just like, Absolutely.

Like, that sounds great. Uh, so like, I got that job as like a part time role and then, um, within like three or four months of doing that, I got hired on to their, like, as a full time role in their, like, product team doing, like, design and engineering with them because they were like, like, you can write code, you can design, like, what you'd just like to [00:21:00] join the company.

Um, and that was like my first project. role, uh, in engineering. Uh, and it was like completely remote. And I had that job for like the first seven years of my career.

Sam Huckaby: So Industrial design. you feel like you used industrial design pretty heavily in

that role?

Will King: Uh, yeah, yes. Um, the, the funny thing about industrial design is like, if you look at the curriculum, it just happens to be applied to physical products. But we, the education that we got at Auburn specifically was, um, so I graduated from Auburn. Every industrial design program just takes a different methodology depending on like which program you go to.

Auburn's program was always known for being less artsy. Um, so a lot of other programs, they tended to be more focused on like [00:22:00] how good something looks, like how well done your sketches are, like how well you think through, like, how, like, beautiful the products that you are creating are, which are, which is valuable because like, that's like what you see a lot of things for like marketing and how people, like, they, a lot of them got a lot better jobs.

out of the gate because they had these just incredibly beautiful like renderings of non real products. Um, but the Auburn students, um, because they came from like an engineering school, the, the methodology they wanted to take, and I think how they probably got the program to be accepted, um, as well at the school, because it's just like a weird program to kind of have, um, around these schools, is they took a lot more like methodical, like, We're thinking about design, um, methodology.

We're thinking about like how to think about design, how to take design from like conception to like understanding the problem, understanding how people use it. Like all of these things that go [00:23:00] into like building any product is just like Research understanding your user and like, yes, at some point the rubber has to meet the road and you have to design something that looks good.

So like we definitely factored that in, but majority of the time was spent on like understanding how to research problems and how to design solutions that actually solve the problems that you like. Discover during your research. Um, and then like, then it was the make it look good. And then it was like the make it practical.

So like a big part of our education too, is like manufacturing, um, with physical products, like you've got to not only design your product to be like, to look good, but to be like, hopefully easy to be made like fewer parts, uh, better like manufacturing processes to save money, like to increase margins, like these type of things where it's like, you're really thinking about a product holistically.

not just like how good does it look or like, oh, like how clever is, is the manufacturing. Um, like you've got to balance [00:24:00] these two things to, to create, you don't want just want the most efficient product you can possibly build. Cause then it's an ugly product and you don't want the most attractive product you could possibly build because then it's like extremely inefficient and your margins are terrible.

Um, so like there, it was always this balance and it was all built on the foundation of like, Your, your user, uh, research and understanding. And, and that, that pyramid is like what has made me a professional. Um, whether I've been in digital, physical, or like, like anything else that I do career wise, like.

Those concepts are just so valuable. Like I got, I've been super into like indie hacking, bootstrap business, like all those, like all of that, like since the beginning, since I started, um, I've probably listened to like every episode of like startups for the rest of us. And, you know, like all of those podcasts, just because like, I didn't grow up in my career as a designer.

I didn't grow up in my career [00:25:00] as an engineer. I grew up as somebody who just makes good products. Um, and so it's just, I'm just drawn to that, that concept and design and engineering just happened to be, to me, the, the easiest way to like. Bring those things that I enjoyed to fruition.

Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. So you said you've been, or you've said you were with, Skill Crush,

right? So you're there for about

Will King: Yes.

Sam Huckaby: Is your role effectively the same across all seven

years?

Will King: So, yeah, I mean, yes, yes. And no, like it's seven years. So like, obviously my experience changes. I get more responsibility, more trust. Um, I end up doing a lot more pro like when I started, I was like very junior. It was like. Oh, Hey, we'll like hear your tasks, um, get them done. Like, we'll like figure it out together and make sure that you get it done.

Right. Um, more like senior on the design side where like, I have a lot of suggestions for how [00:26:00] something should look or work. Um, but then they would do a lot of helping on the engineering side to get like that, that side of my skill set up to snuff. Um, so like within the first two years, like I'm like, Good to go on the development side.

So like the last five years was just me progressively taking on more and more responsibility and around like year seven, um, I'd kind of gotten to the point of like, well, the only way that I'm moving forward here is like, if I took my boss's job, who was like one of the co founders and director of engineering and like, I didn't want, I would never want to do that there and like didn't see a path forward for that being like a way for me to grow anymore.

Um, so at that point I had started, I had started looking for other positions, um, but one kind of found, ended up finding me.

Sam Huckaby: Before we get to that question, what would you say is your learning style in the, from the programming aspect of things? We've kind of heard about [00:27:00] how you learn design, but like, what's your preferred, do you like to read the

docs? Are you a big project

Will King: Mm hmm. Um, I would say I am both. So I wrote, I wrote a article actually about this. I'm trying to remember what I called it. Uh, but, but the idea is that, um, it's, it's a loop and it's very similar to like how that loop works in industrial design during what we were taught for like the process, which is you do your research, aka, like, read the docs, read it.

Information about whatever you're trying to learn. Um, so I, I will do a lot of reading and I will read up to a certain point to where I'm like, okay, I think I, I think I understand how to do this. Uh, but then rubber has to meet the road. So like, then I go and build, I call it, uh, first you get your breadth, then you get your depth and that's where you find like your rough edges and then you start back over.

Um, so [00:28:00] study. And read. Then do projects. By doing the projects, then you realize. Well, I thought I understood that, but I actually don't, so I'm going to go back and read on that specifically again. Um, and then like you just keep, keep doing that cycle, um, building expertise in the, in the topic. I, I think if I had to pick, if I had to pick one, like, word that I think is more important than the other, it's the building.

Like the actually doing of work. Because that's the only thing that like, solidifies. It like locks in that skill. I'm a big fan of the concept of like getting in reps for any skill. Like you only become good at something if you've done it enough times to where it's like muscle memory. Um, whether that's like a physical thing like shooting basketball or golf or whatever, or coding, um, and design.

Like you, you only get, you get your own take on it. You get [00:29:00] your own, um, with design, a lot of that's like how you get your own personal taste in design is by like. Looking at so much design and doing so much design that you, by nature, gravitate towards, like, the things and the style that you prefer, um, which is just like a conglomeration of, like, everything you've consumed in output, um, and that's, like, the same with programming, I think, which is, like, you can talk all you want about the ideal, like, things, but until you've built the same thing, like eight times, been around like two years to like, have to, I put it on, uh, uh, my podcast last week where I was like, and until you've been around long enough that the code you wrote is legacy code, like you don't really understand.

Like something because like until you realize how the first way you wrote it is wrong, you've not really learned how to do it yet.

Sam Huckaby: Awesome. I agree with that. Also, a couple of things, a couple of things. So we'll, we'll circle back [00:30:00] to the basketball reference because I think that's an important part of who you are now. but yeah, I like the, I like the design talk. Um, I, you weren't actually at Laracon, right? You were just, You

just lay over.

Will King: I was there for Monday. Yeah. I was just, I had, so I was on my way to our company offsite, which was in DC. Um, and like a few months ago I had told Aaron Francis, like, Hey, like, I got a layover in Dallas. Would you like to grab lunch or something? He's like, yeah, that sounds great. And then like a month or so later, he was like, that's actually Laracon week.

Um, and I'm super busy, but there's this like nerdy basketball game going on. Like, would you like to just like You can, we can come hang out, um, there. And I was like, that sounds great. And then like a week before was when David Hill, who like, we've got a connection because of our industrial design background, like David Hill has an industrial design background and we'd connected on Twitter.

And I saw the thing he posted about being the coach. And [00:31:00] so I was like, well, I'm already going to be there. Like, this sounds. Why not? Like this sounds just like fun. I love basketball and I love ridiculousness. So like, let's just, let's just go all in. Um, so that's how I ended up coaching the, uh, the terminal team and getting to play on that team for a little bit.

But yeah. And then like when the game was over, I hopped back on my connecting flight to DC and spent the rest of the week at my company offsite.

Sam Huckaby: Nice. That's awesome. Uh, I, well, I asked about Laracon because Jack McDade had a talk at Laracon. That was really

good. I don't I don't want to

Will King: I saw, I've not watched the whole talk, but I saw it came out in a Willy Wonka outfit, which was incredible.

Sam Huckaby: I recommend. I don't want to rehash what the talk is. I don't know. I'm just right.

Will King: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: watch it. You'd probably like it. I really liked it.

All right.

So seven years. You are coming out of skill crush. You're realizing for you to move forward, have to make a change because you don't want to be your boss, essentially.

Absolutely.

Will King: Right.

Sam Huckaby: what's the next step? Where do you [00:32:00] go from Skill Crush? How do you, well, maybe back up, what's the experience like interviewing? Like, are you in sort of the, I guess there's two sides of it. Are you in sort of the boiling the frog moment, whereas you're interviewing elsewhere, you're starting to feel like, You're seeing stuff at your own company.

That's like not as great. And you're like, man, I really got to get out of here. Or are you getting like the bittersweetness of, Oh, I'm going to have to leave. I wish I

didn't have to.

Will King: Yeah. So fun story. I have never. Interviewed, um, at jobs. Like I have never been like, I'm going to send my resume out to companies I'm interested in for programming. Um, I did like for my first job out of college. Um, but like once I started getting into software, I have not been to like the situation where it's like, I need to get out of here.

Let me like try to find my job, find a job in a bunch of different places and send out resumes. Um, I've been very blessed [00:33:00] to like have people. Recognize something, um, uh, going back to that serendipity thing, things that I've done that attracted attention. And I ended up getting inbound, um, interest. So for the one with skill crush back, some back story, skill crush is like a WordPress website.

It was like a LMS plugin, learning management system plugin. That was basically like cracked open and completely customized, like just. Like, it was just this crazy WordPress, uh, monstrosity, very well written, um, they, even when I, even when I had come on, like, it was just a really well put together, like, it was very methodical, but it was just like, Frankensteined on top of WordPress, um, and I just was like, I've got to get out of PHP, um, and WordPress specifically, cause I didn't know it, PHP [00:34:00] did anything else, it was just like, WordPress is terrible, it's terrible, PHP is WordPress.

They are the same thing. Get me out. Um, and so I'd started learning. I design and engineering. So I lean front end heavy. Uh, and so I was like, well, react seems to be like the modern thing to do. So at that point I had started getting into react projects. Um, I started getting into functional programming, uh, as an engineer does at some point in their career, they dabble in functional programming and everything's a monad.

Um, so I discovered this programming language called elm, uh, for the front end and got real deep into elm. I actually, um, became a maintainer for this package called elm live, um, and rebuilt it from scratch, which was, it was just like a development server for elm that like listened to like change events in your files, recompiled your elm code and like, Refreshed your browser for you, you know, stuff that just feels so like [00:35:00] duh nowadays, but it wasn't as much back then.

And, uh, I started a podcast called, Implementing Elm, which was like, I'm going to interview people. I've got this project I'd done one season where I was trying to build a text editor using Elm. And I was like, well, what's better than just interviewing a bunch of people that I know who have built something similar and just asking them like how they do it or how they would do it.

Um, or what they would change if they did it again, so that I can like learn how to, how to build it myself. Um, so I did that. I put a season together. It was like seven or eight episodes. Uh, and I only did one season. It was fun. Uh, and. The seventh year at Skill Crush, uh, I got somebody that reached out to me that was like, Hey, like, I saw your podcast, um, for Elm, um, that's, it was super cool.

I was just wondering if you were open, like, looking for a new job. Um, and I was [00:36:00] like, I, in fact, am actually, I'd love, like, let's talk. Um, they had a React application, which if I hadn't been building like react stuff on the side myself, I would have just been hosed because then I would have only had WordPress experience.

But I've been building those like react side projects for like years now at this point and had a pretty good understanding of react. Um, he's like, we don't do any elm. Um, but I can tell like, If you cared enough to like learn Elm and make a podcast around trying to be better at it, like clearly you're going to be good at learning and being better at this other stuff too.

So, like, that gave me a huge leg up in the interview process and so that, that's kind of how I ended up getting my like next job after, um, after that Skill Crush job and it was a react front end. It was a React SBA on top of Rails, uh, for a [00:37:00] company called Vecteezy. Um, they do, um, stock photography, which if you don't know, um, so there's like two sides of a stock photography website, there's the, I'm the consumer and I'm trying to search through a ton of pictures, um, and that was not a React app cause that needs to be like SEO optimized and like they were a big Rails company and there's not really like server rendered React, um, content.

Um, as easily, especially at that time. So it was like, it was just like, uh, JavaScript and like templates type stuff. And then they had the other half of the, the software, which is like. All those images come from contributors, and you have to have, like, moderation and reviewers and all this stuff. So they had this, like, software that allowed contributors to submit photos, and then it went through this review process and had to be approved before it would be, like, allowed to be shown publicly on the site.

And that's, that's the side that I worked on was the, the reviewer app on the back end. [00:38:00] It

Sam Huckaby: a review app, imagine there's gotta be some crazy stories. Like content moderation is like such a black hole.

Will King: is. I thankfully I think I, I think I came on like just after like they had just done like a big redesign of it. Um, or they were like right in the middle of a big redesign. Um, for like that exact reason, which was like, they realized they needed all these extra tools because it was exactly what you're talking about.

Like they had had to build a system in for detecting like, uh, like. Not safe for work, like porn, like all these things that people just like upload onto their site, um, and build in tools to like block people who were contributors. Like I need, we need a way to like block your account. There was this whole team, like the whole, there was a review team and like that was literally their job was just like, [00:39:00] they are the one, like they were our customers, like the reviewers were our customers mostly.

Um, because like our job was to make them as like, Fast as possible. Like, how can they review the most amount of photos? Because, like you, they would just get thousands and thousands of submissions like a week and like they had to be able to, like, go through all of these as fast as possible. Um, so it's like a really interesting problem because it was, see, there's a, there's a lot of software.

So, like, the company that I'm at now, um, crunchy data is a product where it is not a daily driver. Like, you don't go, it is not your workspace. Um, it is a product where like you set up your managed database and like you just ignore, pretend that it doesn't exist because like we're managing it for you. Um, and so you're only coming to us if you need to make another database or something goes wrong.

So like that has its own considerations when building the product. This product on the other hand was like, Oh, there were people in it every single minute of every single day using it and needing to be like, [00:40:00] very productive within the interface, like the interface had to be designed and built in a way that allowed speed, uh, and like performance, which is just like a much different way.

Um, perspective to have on a product, uh, then, like, there are so many different, consider, like, design is not just design, and, like, software is not just software, like, there's all these trade offs with, like, who the user is and, like, how the software is getting used, um, so, this one was a fun one, like you said, because, like, we had to take into account how, how fast we can help people be at doing something, you know,

Sam Huckaby: All right. So how long are you at this job for

term short term?

Will King: So I'm, I'm at this job for about eight months. Um,

Sam Huckaby: It's pretty short.

Will King: so, um, once again, like nothing to [00:41:00] do with the company. Uh, and like the same, like what you mentioned earlier, like skill crush, like when I realized it was time to leave, like it was tough leaving. Like there's, there's stuff to be said about, you know, Like hopping between jobs, especially in our career.

Like you just hear about like, yeah, man, I switched. Like I worked at four different places in the last two years and I got like a hundred thousand more like each job change, blah, blah, blah. Like, and like, sure. There's like some level of that, which is good. Um, like there's some level of that, which is like, you've got to, there is, there's truth to you.

When you change companies, you get more of a pay increase. Then staying at the same company and just moving up. Um, however, like there's a detrimental side of that as well, which is like, uh, what I kind of talked about earlier, which is like, if you're not staying at a company long enough to have to like.

see your code become legacy, like your growth as an engineer is, is not as good either. Um, and like, you may get [00:42:00] title increases because you changed and you're good at interviewing or you're good at making things that look good. but like, you can have some like serious gaps in your skillset sometimes that you're blind to personally because you didn't stick around long enough to see those.

Um, so, uh, Skill Crush was a tough one to leave. And I didn't, I wasn't like going out looking for a new job at this other one either. Uh, but as with, uh, this other, other one, uh, I had done a, uh, freelance project with a buddy, uh, with Martha. So Martha was like, Hey, I'm doing this new product. Um, and I've got this great backend developer and I told them about you and I'd love you to just do like the front end of design work.

Um, so I took on that project, worked on it for about three months, uh, with a guy named Chris Winslet. And that was like, while I was still working at skill crush. And then about two years, [00:43:00] um, after that project I get, which is, you know, about month six into this new job, I get a message from him saying like, Hey, I've got this role at a new company.

Um, that I just started working at. And like, you are the perfect fit for this. It is an incredible company. It is a great job with a great team. Like you've got to go for this. And I was just like, sounds great. Like if I had never done this contract project with him and worked with him, then he would not have known when he saw this opening to be like, Hey, I think will who I worked with two years ago would be the perfect fit for this.

Um, so like once again, it's just that like, Oh, well let me go do stuff. Um, do things that are kind of outside of like, The normal, uh, scope of things that I have to be doing, uh, kind of led to this opportunity and right about this time. So with the change from skill crush, um, the, the [00:44:00] first time I'd said no, actually to the Vecteezy company, um, the first time, cause, uh, when we.

When I first got offered the job, um, I hadn't quite hit that ceiling yet. Um, they had incredible paternity leave. I had eight weeks paid, uh, paternity leave and we were having our first kid. And so I was like, ah, I'm staying. Uh, they only had like two weeks of paternity leave. And so, um, I stayed. And then like two years later, he was like, okay, I'm coming back again.

Like, I really want you on the team. Like Here's like a better offer. And like, by then I'd kind of hit that ceiling, you know, our kid was two years old at that point. And I was like, let's do it. Um, six months into the job, uh, we have our second kid and I come in again to my wife and I'm like, Hey, so, um, I may be getting another job.

She's just like, okay, you've got to stop getting job offers when I'm pregnant. You know, like you've got to stop. Uh, and so one of the things I always tell my wife is [00:45:00] like. I want to talk to them. I'm never going to say no, because this could be a bridge, like case in point. Like I said, no, the first time, um, that the Vecteezy job came around, but I like took the interview, talked to them and tried to explain why I didn't think it was a good time.

And so like two years later, it was a good time. And they came back because I'd kept that, like, relationship live, uh, didn't like break the bridge to be like, no, there's no way, you know, like whatever. Uh, and so with this one, I was like, well, I'm always going to talk to them about it. It was like a great job and a great offer.

And I like, I couldn't say no to the offer, especially with like a second kid coming. So I was like, I guess I'm getting a new job. Uh, and so that one, that one came again because of just taking on, um, um, That project with Chris and that, that company was crunchy data who I'm still with today. So I've been there for, I think, two years, two years now.

Sam Huckaby: Okay. So industrial design, [00:46:00] how have

Will King: Yes.

Sam Huckaby: design at crunchy data?

Will King: Oh.

Sam Huckaby: Have you, have we, have we shrugged off industrial design now?

I'm sure.

Will King: I think it's just at the same point, you know, um, so one thing that I didn't like about my job at, um, Vecteezy was there was a full design team and I was handed like a fully packaged thing that was just like, this is the way it's going to be done. Code monkey, do it. Um, and like I pushed, like I pushed back on that and I got, you know, a little more freedom from it.

Cause I, I showed that I knew what I was talking about. Um, but they still had like a system and a design team and things are kind of very rigid. They had like PMs that like managed projects and had like goals and stuff. Uh, and at crunchy, one of the, the really attractive parts of the job was I was coming in as like the, the designer.[00:47:00]

Um, there was no other design in the company. I was the hire for like, design and engineering. Uh, who would be like. The one trying to push how things looked and functioned and design and from the design perspective with an incredibly talented, like, like I'm like the dumbest person at crunchy data by far, like by a huge margin, uh, as far as it comes to like engineering and software, like we've got like incredibly talented, smart people, uh, and we've got like really smart product people, people who like come up with like really good, like product ideas, especially for like this problem space, cause they're all like.

crazy Postgres people, um, who just know Postgres so good. Uh, and I'm just the guy who, because of my background, understands users, how they want to use things and how they expect to use things. And I'm able to like take that connection of like, Hey, we, these are the problems that people have in Postgres.

Like here are the things that like we need to solve [00:48:00] for. How do we solve them? And put them into an interface in a way that like, makes the most sense. And that's like, that's where I get to sit. That's where I get to live. Um, and it's a lot of fun. Cause I just, I get to design and build, um, with others. And, uh, Get to like, I basically get to like help mold the really smart people's ideas and make, you know, they're really good at talking computer, um, and I'm doing my best talking, uh, to like the user side of things and like finding that happy medium where those like mixed together into something, um,

Sam Huckaby: Okay. So that brings us to the harder questions for

the interview.

Will King: Let's do it.

Sam Huckaby: you have any open source experience? Have

you worked with them before at all?

Will King: So, okay. So I have two, I have two bits of open source experience. One that's like a hashtag fail and the other [00:49:00] one. So the one I mentioned already, um, is the Elm live, uh, which was like, I built and managed the like development server for Elm. Um, that was like used by like, it was like the most used one in the community for a while.

So that was fun. You'd get issues and you get to manage those, um, which open source, like props to anyone who like runs a actually used open source project is just, I don't know how people stay focused doing it. I had like the Elm community is very small and like the number of issues that I would get was so small, um, in comparison, but it was just like, it would just like completely sidetrack you and suck you into just this like.

Hole of like, well, guess I'm solving this bug and like that whole day's gone and shot So like that was that was like my experience with like a semi successful like open source thing that I maintained the fun one that I failed at was [00:50:00] So I was working on on, you know, a WordPress project for seven years, uh, at this time, literally, literally like the year after I quit, um, is when, uh, Caleb Porzio came out with Alpine JS.

Uh, and so, um, by that point we'd, I'd like removed jQuery from the stack because it was just like spaghetti. Hard to maintain. Um, part of that was like a skill issue. Cause I was a junior when I first started using it, but like another part of it was like jQuery was now becoming like the browser, like JavaScript just had the stuff you wanted and you could just write JavaScript and it was a little, it was faster.

There was less. dependencies being loaded, et cetera, et cetera. And so I wrote basically Alpine JS before Alpine JS, just with like a much worse API. Um, so I wrote, I wrote like a, like a functioning, a functional approach. [00:51:00] To, uh, Alpine JS, basically, um, which was just like, we're taking all of like the DOM manipulation in DOM searching functions.

I think it's still in my GitHub somewhere. Um, I called it salad bar. Uh, the idea was just like, It was like a smattering of like Dom utilities that you could just pull in and you would use like pipe operator. And so you could have like, if you're familiar with pipe, it's just like put all these functions and pipe the initial argument through the first function.

Then the output of that one just automatically goes into the next function. It's a very functional programming thing to avoid. Um, like. variables and like having to have like in between state. Um, and so I had these like functions that was like find element and you passed it a selector and then you'd have all these utilities to like add a class, add an attribute, remove an attribute, uh, remove a class or toggle a class.

Um, like all [00:52:00] these like very like bits and piece little. little utilities that would help you do every all the DOM manipulation stuff that was just so frustrating to like, rewrite over and over, get by this, make sure that it exists. If it exists, then do this, all this kind of stuff. Um, and I like wrote it, made a logo for it, wrote docs for it, built like demo examples of it, put it all out there and like got maybe negative two downloads if that's possible.

Like, like nobody cared, nobody saw it. I used it. Um, at our, our company a lot, cause I had just written these functions by myself with internally. So, um, but like. Big fail. No, nobody cared or used it. Um, and then Alpine JS came out the next year and it was like, incredible and way better. And I use that like moving forward on all projects.

Sam Huckaby: Maybe dodged a bullet. You never know, like the issues open

Will King: yeah,[00:53:00]

maybe I'll have to talk to Caleb about that and see how he feels. Oh man.

Sam Huckaby: Been there two years. Um, what does the future look like for Will? Like is your desire to be like a CEO, CMO someday? Are you like happy, content as a designer?

I see. Like what, what kind of like when you're, I don't know, 60 years old you're just kind of cruising off into the sunset, where do

you want to be? I don't know.

Will King: You know, that's a, that's a good question. Um, I thought about this one cause you sent it earlier and I was like, man, I'm so glad you sent this one ahead of time. Cause honestly, I still don't, I still don't know if I have an answer for this. Uh, but I have, I have like a, uh, what Aaron Francis calls like, uh, he calls it the galaxy quadrant theory or something.

Um, where it's like, I have [00:54:00] a direction that I want my career to go in, but the details don't matter. Specifically, and I will uncover them along the way. Um, basically like what I want out of my career is I just want to build good products with like cool people. That's it. Like, that's my goal. I don't, I don't have, like, it'd be incredible if like, I think about this a lot.

So, um, you know, like I'm a Christian, uh, I believe in God, uh, and, That factors into like times where I'm just thinking, and I just think to myself like, like, could I, you know, we've got talents that God gives us, and like, we should be able to use those talents and like the numbers of times where I've just been like trying to shoehorn.

You know, like my design and software into like doing something related to that. I tried like a bunch of different times and you know, nothing ever [00:55:00] seems to stick, but it's just like that, that would be great. Like, it'd be awesome if I could build a product that helped Christians be better. Like. be better Christians in some way or like help people who are not Christians find Christ.

But like, that's just like, there's no guarantee. Like, there's no guarantee that like software is like the way that I'm supposed to be using my talents. But like, that'd be neat. Like, I'd love to be able to do something related to that from a day job. Or like, maybe there's like some career, some like job where it's like, do I like really real?

I mean, don't Craig, if you're listening, I'm this next thing I'm about to say is a joke. He's my boss. Um, I don't really care about. Like, Postgres databases. Like, I really don't. Um, I didn't really care about stock photography. Um, I mean, maybe Skill Crush was, like, the most, like, morally correct, like, connected, I felt, to the thing that I was building.

Because, like, helping other people learn to code. And on the platform [00:56:00] that taught me how to code felt good. Like I felt like I was helping more people find the career that I had found that I would not have had otherwise. Um, so that, that felt good, so like maybe there's like a future where I find some, some products somewhere that I'm just like, Oh yeah, like the world needs this.

And so I feel morally fulfilled working on this. That would be probably like the ideal. It's like I get to not only build a cool product, but like a cool product that I know helps people, um, in a way that matters to me. Um, but Absent of that, like I just enjoy building cool things and making like building relationships with like cool people building cool things.

Like that's why I reached out to you about this was like I saw that you were doing an awesome podcast about like learning about people and like where they started from. And I was just like, shoot, that sounds fun. Like, let's let's meet like, let's talk, Sam. Like, let's like have a relationship, you [00:57:00] know, like, I would like to think that maybe after this, like, we'll get to be friends, you know, like that's why I did the, the basketball thing, you know, like I work remote from Montgomery, Alabama.

Um, there are not many people here surprised who like understand software, uh, like web development and like this world that we live in of like building like software and digital products and like internet fun. Um, so like any opportunity that I get to, hang out or spend time, which is like a recent thing, um, within the last like year and a half where I've, I've, I've always put myself out there, but I'm not like engaged personally.

It's just been like, Hey, here's this cool thing that I've done. Um, but like now it's just like, okay, well, like, let's still build cool things. Cause that's fun. Um, Let's try to share how I'm building those cool things. So maybe other people can build those cool things too. Or like, inspired by it to build something completely different and better.

Uh, that would be awesome. So, uh, that's [00:58:00] like part of it. And then the other part of it is just to like, have friends that like the stuff that I do that like actually want to hang out in person. Um, so like going to the Laracon, playing on that basketball team, getting to meet everybody and just like, I'll tell you a secret.

Um, don't tell Aaron. I didn't actually have a layover, um, in Dallas, you know, like there's a direct flight from Montgomery to DC, but I was just like scrolling through the flights and saw that there was one with a layover in Dallas. And it was just like, this feels like an opportunity to like maybe make friends with him or like at least build some kind of relationship more than like hey we comment on each other's stuff on twitter you know or x um so like that i would say that's kind of like the goal for my career at this point is just like Provide for my family.

So like, I'm not going to do anything that's going to like, remove my ability to do that for the sake of like me feeling like I'm somebody like, I'm not just going to be like, I'm a creator now and [00:59:00] like, whatever, like, although that'd be cool, like, it's not just about building cool stuff and meeting cool people, like I I've got to be able to provide for my family.

But as long as I'm providing for my family, uh, a good life for them, then like, I don't know. The rest of it that matters is just like, just that, like, let's, let's build some cool stuff with cool people and be friends, like actual friends with real relationships. And like we can hang out and not talk about internet stuff and just like, it will be fun.

Like, let's go do like. Crazy stuff in the mountains or like let's all go whitewater rafting. That would be super fun Um, I don't know. So like that that's like what I'm working for the goals that I'm pursuing

Sam Huckaby: All right. So then you've kind of already answered the last question, which is like, like, what are you doing? Like, how do you go about actively making those goals

reality?

Will King: Okay. So there [01:00:00] are two things that I I have kind of like dialed in on, which is, um, I used to be really obsessed with like building like a sass or like a business, like something that was like, man, I'm going to make a bunch of money and I'm be rich. Um, and it'll be great because then I'll have a lot of money and I can do all the things I want to do.

Um, but I just realized like. I was only doing that because I like liked building projects and like sure I like the idea of money But like I don't remember who said this but it was just like if you had a million dollars or ten million dollars, whatever Right now like what would you do with that money and you make that list and when you look at that list?

What you realize is oh, I don't need 10 million dollars to do a lot of these things like some you might like oh yeah I'd love to go like travel all around Europe a bunch like sure you need a lot of money for that but like man I'd like to just like build really cool products that people like or like cool [01:01:00] things that people like.

You don't have to have money to do that. Uh, I'd like to have a family, um, that like loves me and loves my wife and that we do a good job with and have a lot of fun. Like don't have to have a ton of money to do that either. Like, it's not about the money. It's about the time and love and attention that you give to your family, which in fact, like pursuing that big money goal can, can sometimes ruin that.

So like, it's actually like the opposite. And then the other one is like, I want to like build relationships. Um, with people and have like real friendships with people who like love this product stuff and love internet stuff, but also love to have a good time and just want to be friends. Um, and like, boom, like don't need money for that either.

So like all these things that I like actually wanted out of my life don't require like a ton of money. So, um, what I, I ended up realizing about a year and a half ago and started changing was like, sure, like maybe I'm not going to be, I'm not going to shy away from like building something that [01:02:00] makes money that isn't my job, you know, like some other product, but that's not going to be like the goal.

I'm just going to like keep an eye out for it. And instead what I'm going to do is like, I'm just going to start building stuff that I am interested in and care about. Even if it has no monetary outcome, I just want to build things that I think are cool. Cause I'd put that on the side. Like every time I had an idea and thought, Oh, this is really cool.

I would try to think of some business model for it. And if it didn't have a business model, I would toss it. So I stopped doing that and I stopped thinking about business models. I just started thinking about like cool things to build. Uh, and so the one that I'm, I'm working on recently is this, um, it came to me as part of like a way to talk about, uh, generative art, which is like a generative art is like it's art, but it's also like this, like core of it, which is just like a way of making an experience on the web personalized.

Um, and so I wanted to, like, make a talk, uh, that I'm gonna try to give sometime next [01:03:00] year, somewhere, um, I submitted it to React Miami, we'll see if that gets taken, if not, I'm gonna send it around to some other, other ones as well to try to get it picked up, um, but the idea is that, like, software can be fun, like, building products can be fun, not only for you, but it can be fun for your users, and, like, if you make something fun for your users, like, you're gonna get some word of mouth.

Because people are gonna be like, wow, this is so cool. And like generative art, generative things are a way of doing that. Um, because like, it is something unique and collectible or customizable to them. So like I'm building currently, you'll, you'll see it in my, uh, like pinned. The pinned tweet on my profile, I built this, uh, like a little, like it looks almost real, um, like devices.

So kind of like a, like a Gameboy esque looking kind of thing. Um, and on the screen, like it allows you to like record audio and it shows this little, like spinny globe that takes in the audio and visualizes it in some, uh, [01:04:00] randomized way. And then the part, the part that I'm going to do after that, that I've kind of gone down the rabbit hole on before getting there is like, I want to be able to take audio.

And turn that audio into a, a unique generative art piece to just show, that's kind of like the wow moment of the talk. Like there's fundamentals, which is like, here's all the fundamentals of like generative stuff. And then here's this like wow moment of like if you put it all together with an idea that you have, like you can really make cool stuff.

Like here's the wow moment. And then the final part is just like here are some like real practical use cases for a business that you could do today to, to like add something generative to your product, um, that you could take to your boss and be like, here's the actual like practical use for it. It gives people this feeling of like, Oh, this is for you made this for me.

You didn't just, I'm not just using some piece of software that like is the same, um, did software doesn't have to sacrifice all [01:05:00] the fun at the altar of like consistency and scale. Um, there can be some fun uniqueness. Um, so like that's the project that I'm currently going down the rabbit hole on. And like when you just build cool stuff like that for something that you have like conviction on like.

Like I, I've posted about it like maybe like five times already in the first four times. Like nobody noticed it at all. And then the last one that I posted, it was just like, it caught some traction and got noticed by like quite a few people. And like that's just kind of how it is. Like you build cool stuff, you just keep building cool stuff.

Um, and people will notice at some point. And then the other thing is just like. Not being afraid to just say, Hey, what's like my thing? Like, don't people on the internet are not like better than you, I guess it's like this mantra that you get, uh, where you're like, you see somebody who might be well known or like who posts a lot and you build this like avatar in your mind of who they are.

Like, Oh, they're this [01:06:00] really cool person. And they always do all this cool stuff. And like, I'm not cool enough to like talk to them or be friends with them. It's just so easy on the internet to build that kind of up in your mind. And so like a year and a half ago, I was just like, what's the worst thing that happens if I just say, Hey to somebody, they just ignore me, which they were already doing because they didn't know I existed.

So like, what did I lose there? Nothing. Cause they're never going to think about me again. Like people. People just don't think about you as much as you think about it. So I just decided to do that. And now I have just a ton of friends, um, on X and Twitter. And like, you know, you hear about these, like, private telegram groups or whatever that people talk about.

Um, where it's just like, it's not like these private telegram groups where it's like, everything's happening, but it's just like, no, like when you actually make friends with people surprise, like, you just get invited to like messages groups with like people who are your friends. Uh, it's [01:07:00] just like in high school, like when you just have friends, you get invited to things with friends.

And so that's like what I like committed to doing is just like trying to actually. Make friends and put myself out there be willing to to travel to Dallas to do something kind of crazy to meet people to have some fun. Um, so into like jump on podcasts and do like stuff like this and not consider me or my time too precious.

Personally, um, I'm always, always balancing like family time. That's the, the one that's like, I'm not going to compromise on, but, um, yeah, just those two things. And it's just been like a completely different feeling for the past year and a half online. And like socially it's just been like exciting again,