Rissa Jackson - Laravel and International Relations

Sam Huckaby: [00:00:00] Now, I'm for sure it's recording. Well, anyway, thanks for being willing to come and talk to me again to hear about your origin story. I'm excited. I've already heard your origin story once and I'm excited to hear it again. So let's go. Maybe it will take a little bit of a twist this time. Maybe we'll try and not do the exact same questions.

Rissa Jackson: it.

Sam Huckaby: Well , let's start where we did start because I do, I did like that starting point. What, what was the earliest interaction that you had with programming?

Rissa Jackson: Okay. Um, so I started programming in maybe like my mid to late ish twenties. Um, my partner was a programmer and I never really considered programming or tech. I just kind of assumed that you had to be like this special technical person who's great at math for it. And I do think that for a lot of people, that's kind of like the, the Like, uh, stereotypes about a programmer and, um, he was like, you know, you should just try it and [00:01:00] I was really interested in a life where I could travel and work remotely. Um, I was originally studying international relations in Chinese, so I obviously was very interested in the world. so I tried it out. Um, I've got basically like a minor in computer science. Um, and I. Found it hard my brain didn't immediately think that way but also really rewarding and cool like it Just felt like really magical and like this whole new world opened up.

So that was super neat.

Sam Huckaby: All right. So here's where we go off the trail. We'll go back a little further. So prior to like university, college, any of that stuff, was there anything like in your life that like looking back now? Like post computer science. Is there anything like in your early history that you're like, Oh man, I actually did kind of like programming.

I just didn't know it back then.

Rissa Jackson: It's a good question. I think that I Always [00:02:00] enjoyed logic puzzles. I took one math class that like it was really focused on logic puzzles instead of like more traditional math and I Really gravitated towards that and I would say that It's really relevant to what we're doing with programming, you know, trying to figure out how to solve things and think about think through the problem and the options so that could be like one example and then I guess like I've been enjoying like working on learning languages for a long time.

I've been. Mandarin, well, actually since I was a baby, but like studying it like in high school and after high school and university and all that stuff. So definitely interested in learning languages and I think programming goes really well with that too.

Sam Huckaby: Nice. You said you'd been learning Mandarin since you were a baby.

Rissa Jackson: Yes,

Sam Huckaby: Why does it go that far back?

Rissa Jackson: parents lived in Taiwan and that's where I was born. so I spoke a little [00:03:00] as a baby. And as I grew up, I like knew a couple of words still, like I didn't retain a lot, but I think it was very helpful for learning the language because I had a basic understanding of some of the sounds and the way that the words were pronounced. So that definitely gave me a leg up when I was studying it in high school.

Sam Huckaby: Nice. Right. So before we get into any more college stuff, if there's someone who listens to this interview and it's like on the, on the. The edge, they haven't decided if they want to do computer science. Maybe they're doing something else. Maybe they're in language studies. Maybe they're, I don't know, a grocer or a farmer, like, whatever.

And they're considering computer science and you had just like a minute or two to just talk to them and tell them whether you think they should. And why they should what would you say to them?

Rissa Jackson: Well, I guess the first thing that I would say is that Like any [00:04:00] skill, anyone can learn it. Um, being an artist isn't some magical inherent thing. Like there are people who are going to be better at it naturally. They have some innate skills. Mozart is obviously on a different level than the average person, anyone could get to like a really good level of. Musician or artist just by putting time into it. And so that's the exact same thing with programming and tech and like any kind of stem skill. It just takes time and some people are going to pick it up faster than others, but. It's, it's all doable for any type of human. so that's kind of like the first thing, like, it's not this mystical special thing that only certain people can learn, but it's like, you know, you do one quick tutorial and then you have it and it's like super easy.

Like it's. It's hard. It's challenging. It takes time. So I guess, like, I would say, like, no, you can do it. And then at, like, the [00:05:00] career path. You know, maybe try out some tutorials, especially the ones that, like, are really nice for beginners. They, like, show you how to set up maybe, like, an editor or how to, like, run it.

Maybe they have a way to run it in the browser. Because, like, some of those first steps are very intimidating. Um, so if you can try something that gives you a little bit of support, And you enjoy it. I think give it a chance because it's a really rewarding career and there's a lot of great opportunities in programming. Obviously, it's a bit more challenging to start right now than it's been in the past. So I do warn people about that. You know, it's not like you do a boot camp and you're guaranteed a job and it's all great. It's, it's hard. But for some people like this can be a life changing career, a career that gives them a chance to, you know, have some financial independence and make choices with their life that they never would have dreamed of.

So I definitely recommend that people at least consider it.

Sam Huckaby: Awesome. Okay, [00:06:00] now that you've had your chance to influence the future generations of coders, I hope everyone was listening back to you. So you said that your partner was the one who kind of encouraged you to take a stab at programming. Did you have any, any other influences at all? Like in your life saying you should try programming?

Rissa Jackson: Not really. Um, my parents definitely encouraged my older brother to try a lot of technical things. Like I remember he was given a computer much younger. I mean, obviously he was older than me, so we got it first. But like, even by the time I got to that same age, I didn't get a computer for a long time and would, you know, computers from scratch and have LAN parties and like, he was super into gaming.

So he just had. Like all this natural experience with technology. And I was like, very unaware of it. I think the time I got to like 15, I got an X Box, which was like the first gaming console I'd ever gotten. And then [00:07:00] he took it and I was like, okay, I guess I won't learn how to play video games. So like, I'm actually like learning video games as an adult. And then when I was learning programming, I was also kind of like learning how to be better at a computer. Like I had basic things. Skills. I could, you know, type in a browser, the website I wanted to go to, but like, I couldn't do anything on a computer. I, you know, barely could figure out like the settings.

I didn't mess with any of them. So I definitely feel like there was a learning curve there because my family definitely encouraged my brother to try these things and didn't really give me kind of the same encouragement, but I definitely. I like it reminds me of the early days of like my space and then like people were like changing up their themes and messing with like the html I didn't get any of that.

I didn't understand it. I just like copied the theme from somewhere else, but it was like super cool and magical seeming and now [00:08:00] I kind of just wish I had like not been so intimidated and I just like looked at what I was copying and pasting and then like, oh, there's a color here. I could try to change that.

You know, just something simple.

Sam Huckaby: Okay, so back to college, then your partner is convinced you to give this a shot. You do it. You get a minor in computer science. Uh, where do you go from college? Do you go straight into tech? Do you go somewhere else? What's next?

Rissa Jackson: I graduated at a pretty exciting time, uh, May 2020. So it was definitely a fun and challenging time to start job hunting. And my partner had been working in tech for a little bit and he was like, you know, I just want to warn you that I know you want to work remotely, but that's going to take time, probably.

Like, you know, it took me several years to get a job, um, remotely. And I was like, okay, I'll know, working in office for a while until I can get a remote job. But graduating May, 2020 meant that all the jobs were remote. And so my very first [00:09:00] job in tech was remote. He was a little bit jealous, but, um, I was really grateful that, that the stars kind of aligned in that way.

Obviously the pandemic wasn't great, but it was one of the few things that like made things a little bit better for me getting to do a remote job from the beginning. Obviously there are pros and cons to being remote, especially as a junior developer, but I still loved that experience. Sure.

Sam Huckaby: All right, so what kind of, um, what kind of, like, programming languages, like, maybe what industry, and we don't want to necessarily say which company it is, but can you tell me a little bit about, like, the role itself that you were involved in? Very

Rissa Jackson: Um, so like many junior developers who are first job hunting, I was applying to anything and everything and ready for learning literally anything they would let me. Um, most of the stuff I learned in college was Python. We did [00:10:00] a lot of, you know, kind of algorithmic, almost leak code type things. problems with that. And then a little bit of javascript, a little bit of sequel. And I took one mobile class. So I got a little bit of swift. So I had like little pocket of like knowledge and my most comfortable is python. So I was like really trying for that. saw this php job. I didn't even know what php was. Um, my partner should I apply for it?

And he's like, no, don't don't even bother. And I was like, well, I don't know. I feel like I should just try. Like, you know, what's the worst that happens? They don't say yes, but they actually, you know, interviewed me and I had a great time with their interview process. And then I got the job and I was like, well, great.

I have my first job and I'm going to learn whatever PHP is and do that until I can go to Python or something else. But, um, getting that job. got to meet some really wonderful people. Some people I'm still friends with today who showed me like what Laravel [00:11:00] is and why it's so wonderful. And even being a bit overwhelmed by learning how to be a professional developer, learning PHP, learning frameworks, and Laravel all at the same time, they all said, um, slim on the backend and for the front end, they had knockout and view. So I was learning a lot of things at once. But I immediately was realizing that Laravel does a lot of wonderful things. Like their documentation is really great to work with as a new person. It was fun to do side projects with it and see how fast I could get up and running. So I really fell in love with it pretty quickly and realized I didn't want to change jobs to a different language.

I wanted to keep working with Laravel. And I've been really lucky that, um, I've had three jobs and all three of them have let me do Laravel and mostly Vue.

Sam Huckaby: cool. Knockout. js. Man, that's a blast from the past. Can't believe there was still any of that around in 20.

Rissa Jackson: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: Alright, so, JuniorDev. First company, [00:12:00] a language you're not familiar with, what is the plan here? How do you, how do you learn PHP? Like you've just, you've literally just been thrown into it. What's your, what's your avenue?

What's your approach to learning PHP?

Rissa Jackson: yeah. It was, it was tricky. Um, uh, layer casts were super helpful. I also had access to Pluralsight. Um, my partner had that through his company, so I would watch videos and that was such a great way to just kind of learn kind of top down and what you Maybe cleaner code could look like, cause I'm, I'm working in a code base.

And as we both know, legacy code bases, they got some funny things going on. So it was great to, you know, do these videos and be like, Oh, here's what a controller looks like when it's not a thousand lines and you know, what it could look like if you're starting out. And so that was super helpful. And then, you docs, um, doing some of my own projects in layer bell and just kind of.

Practicing some of [00:13:00] those, you know, controllers and routing and all that stuff was really helpful. Um, but I also tried to give myself some space. Like, um, think it's always a bit, but especially in the beginning, it's all like a fire hose of information. And so I couldn't, Pursue everything that didn't make sense.

But I try to like kind of take some notes. Like when people said words, I didn't know when the concept came up, I didn't know, like, it was like, Oh, someone said I should use a ternary what's the Turner, you know, I'd write some stuff down and as they came up more and more, I'd be like, okay, I need to focus on this one.

This one's come up a couple of times and, you know, research it. How do I use it? What's the syntax for it or something. And as, as time went on, you know, you're building out your knowledge and increasing it and just kind of keeps building on each other, which is really helpful.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, that's good. That's good. Um, did you utilize much, uh, like peer programming whenever you were, First getting started. I know that can be tricky for some people.

Rissa Jackson: [00:14:00] was a huge fan of it. Um, some of the companies I've worked for have been very big fans of it. And some have been less like, not necessarily discouraging it, but not really supporting it necessarily. Um, but I learned really well from talking to other people. So some of my mentors have been helpful for my biggest jumps in knowledge and understanding, because. Reading it in a doc is just not the same as like talking to someone, doing it immediately, getting feedback on like, oh, you did this way, but there's another way that's slightly better. Like, getting that kind of immediate feedback is so helpful. And I love, you know, watching someone else drive or, um, like, yeah, else drive, um, like, they're on the computer and seeing, like, What tools they use, how they use their editor. There's so many cool things that PHP storm does, for example, and like, hard to learn them all, but watching someone like right click and do this thing and you're like, oh, I can like, you know, [00:15:00] search in this one directory for this specific keyword. It's like, wow, that's super helpful. I'm going to use that later. And then sometimes, you know, I'm driving and then other people are like, oh, you did it this way, but there's a more efficient way to do it. Or here's a way you can use your editor and. So I find that like an incredibly powerful way to learn and just, um, great connections with people at work. Sure.

Sam Huckaby: Awesome. So then one last question then before we move to the next company, um, What would you say was the perception, like you're coming in as a junior developer, do you feel like you were really well received by more experienced developers? Do you feel like you had to prove yourself? Like, I guess a little bit of that, um, uh, what's the name?

Uh, imposter syndrome. Like, did you feel like it was tough to kind of get people to take you seriously as a junior developer? Do you feel like they immediately assumed you knew everything? Like, kind of? Can you talk about that a little?

Rissa Jackson: [00:16:00] Um, I think that honestly, it was very freeing when I was first starting out because I had almost this built an excuse of like, well, I I'm new, I don't know everything. And it was very easy to ask a lot of questions and, you know, I'm going to ask for a lot of help. I honestly think that being a mid level is honestly harder with that.

And the imposter syndrome, because in your life I've been doing this for some years, people expect me to know more, but like, do I know the right amount of more or have I not reached it? Like what's like, should I have already known this thing they're asking about? And so I've definitely tried to just be like, you're, you're still learning.

You're always going to be learning. And you know, it's okay to not know everything. No one knows everything. And it's really. Wonderful when I get to work with senior or staff level developers who have so much experience and I have so much respect for them I hear them like not remember something or like ask a question about how something works and I'm just like, oh, okay.

So. [00:17:00] Even them, like, don't have everything memorized and figured out. So that's been really helpful. But yeah, I just think that if you're a junior developer, like, lean into the superpower of, like, not knowing things. Because that's, like, such a wonderful window in time where you can be like, I'm just, I'm a junior.

Like, what is this help? You know, what, what's going on here? Um,

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, I love that. That, that's actually something we talked about in the first, the first time we did this interview, the one I forgot to record. The superpower of not knowing is so huge. I think so many people just don't understand how freeing that can be. Anyway, I love it.

So, We're now, you're now getting ready to leave company a, um, what was it that maybe made you consider that it's time to move on to company B like, and, and maybe also what were you looking for in a company B when you made the decision that it was time to leave?[00:18:00]

Rissa Jackson: I guess it's always hard to say because there's so many pros and cons for staying and leaving. Um, I think that I was really interested in seeing. a new company and a new type of company would be doing and what I can learn from that. So my first company, we did some interesting things that we had really long running feature branches and, you know, we had this whole terminology that came with it.

We call them jam branches and stuff like that. And, and for a while, it's like, this is just how programming works and it is a way of programming works. The opportunity to work at other companies really helps you realize like this is the. Terminology that's specific to this one company. Like this is the culture they've built up.

And then this is stuff that's like more closer to general or universal. Like you'll see this at several different companies or in several different products projects. And I think there is a lot of value kind of [00:19:00] early ish in your career, getting to experience. Some of those changes and what's similar about them and getting to learn from a lot of different people. So I was super excited about company too because there were so many talented developers that I could learn from. And I'm so grateful I made that change because I still to this day think of the things I've learned from them. I'm still grateful for those relationships and it's definitely balance because you want to have enough time at a company to really soak up a lot of knowledge and opportunities and learning. But it's also good to make sure that you don't get to like complacent and just stay in one place without a lot of growth.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, for sure. So do you think. Maybe thinking about it from an aspect of growth, right? How would you compare the experience of interviewing at a tech company for company, the first company versus the experience of interviewing at the next company, considering you knew so much more now, [00:20:00] like you had experience with stuff, how would you say it was different between the two?

Rissa Jackson: Yeah, it was interesting. They were still a little similar. I think they both were very thoughtful in their interview process of not just trying to have people jump through hoops and do this whole leet code thing. One of them had me do like a take home I think there's pros and cons with take home.

Um, of the pros is that you're not on the spot and you really get to program how we would do at a job and look up resources, but also another challenge of it. It's like, it's hard to figure out where to stop if you just want to keep going and like perfecting. And so that can take up a lot of time and energy. But overall, I thought that, um, the second interview. Like the second company's interview was a little bit more nerve wracking. Like I mentioned that kind of mid level imposter syndrome starts where you're like, well, I'm supposed to know more and hopefully this is the right amount. um, good because didn't [00:21:00] do a perfect job on the interviews and I still got the job and it was like a great. Reminder that you don't have to like kill an interview and do perfect to get a job You just need to you know Do as good as you can and show the way you think and talk through things and make sure that you're not just quietly You know solving problems without communicating

Sam Huckaby: Okay. So moving into company two now. What were you, what was sort of the, the role, the job that you're doing at company two is a pretty similar to company one. Or did you kind of take on a new responsibilities?

Rissa Jackson: was a bit different. So company one was a product company and, uh, company two was a agency. So I worked on a lot of different products, um, or projects, maybe is the better word. Um, so I would be on a project and then we would go for however long the contract was. And some of them were pretty short and some of them were much longer, several months. And, It was a great opportunity to see lots of code bases and [00:22:00] different ways people solve problems. There were, you know, these really small ones where they didn't really even have like a developer at all. So we were just like their developers for a period of time making features. And then there were some that were like pretty big.

They had several developers and we were helping and looking at the way that they did their process and giving suggestions on how they could be better. for one company, they like over architected the, you know, the crap out of this code base and it was so painful finding anything. You just had to open like 20 files to find, you know, service and provider and all the things.

And, um, yeah, it just kept going and going and going. Repositories and all that stuff. And we were just like, Why are you doing this? Like, what is your goal? And their goal was to be prepared for maybe not using eloquent in Laravel. And we're just like, okay, but like you're making the day to day experience really painful.

And if you were moved eloquent, for some reason, [00:23:00] you're still going to have to do a lot of work. Like it's not going to be an easy thing. So maybe don't prepare for that. And just, if you cross that bridge, do all the work then instead of creating so much work now. And especially because we talked to them about what their goals were and their goals were, you know, doing things faster, which is a lot of companies goals.

And it's like, well, can't overarchitect the code base and make it really painful to make any changes and then also be faster. It just doesn't go together.

Sam Huckaby: It never goes together ever. And everyone does it. right. So an agency, we love talking about agencies. I have several questions. First, did you, were you ever asked to build anything at this agency that you were like, this is a terrible idea? Yeah.

Rissa Jackson: don't know that it, well, yes, kind of. Um, we spent a lot of time on one project, um, like editing CSVs, like just programming them. For ages and we [00:24:00] couldn't figure out like what some of the columns needed and then to test everything it took like 10 minutes maybe to like reload the new CSV and go through this whole like testing thing. And when things were wrong, like, they would just be like, barely wrong. We would just have to keep doing this really slow feedback loop. Um, and they wanted us to add more of these, like they already had some, we're building up new ones and it was like. That's what they want. So we're going to do it, but wow, this is like such a waste of time and very painful.

Sam Huckaby: Was there ever, did you ever have to say no? Like, did you ever get, did, did your company ever get a request from a customer that you're aware of where they just said, Hey, we're not going to do this. It's not a good idea.

Rissa Jackson: sure that they've said no to some clients. I wasn't on any of those projects where no was needed to be said. Um, maybe kind of on one project I was on, they wanted [00:25:00] us to join all the, um, like scrum ceremonies while we were part of the company and the company was doing everything at like. Eastern time early in the morning. And we were just kind of like, we're just not up for going. Like some of us were pretty far away from that. We're not really up for going super early to like all the meetings. So we had like, I think one of our representatives there, but like, we just didn't have the whole team go. So that was kind of a no, and I really appreciate that. Cause I'm not a morning person.

Sam Huckaby: Fair. so having looked at kind of a large number of codebases now working with an agency, do you think there was any, way of building things or like structure or even just like tactic that you kind of saw used in many projects that you kind of took away with you that you would use in your own projects?

Rissa Jackson: I think a really massive lesson that I gained from looking at a lot of codebases. Um, I've learned this pretty, [00:26:00] uh, strongly from a developer who was there called Sarah Bine. She's wonderful, and she was a huge proponent of YAGNI, you ain't gonna need it. And I think that the more codebases I saw, the more I was like, yes, this makes so much sense to me.

Like that one codebase I mentioned, which was super over architected You know, repositories and services and everything. It just kind of felt so silly. And if I am working on code, I really try to think of like, how how simple can we make it to start and not plan too far ahead of like, well, in the future we might want to, you know, get rid of eloquent or something.

Sam Huckaby: Man, I can't even imagine the future removing eloquent is to play. That's just me.

Rissa Jackson: I feel like the amount of companies that actually do something like that is probably smaller than the amount of companies that prepare to do that.

Sam Huckaby: Well, he's gotta be. All right. So company two, you've been doing all sorts of stuff, all [00:27:00] kinds of places with all sorts of companies, but eventually the day comes where you have outgrown company two, right? Or you've decided that you're going to, you're going to change jobs. Um, how different is it? Like when you were at company one, deciding that it's time to go versus at company two, where you've now got a good bit of experience under your belt.

Uh, how different would you say the process of deciding? It's time to go is, is it the same? Is it very different?

Rissa Jackson: definitely a bit different. Um, I think in company two, there was still a lot I could still learn working on lots of different code bases. There is so much to gain from it. And there was definitely more I could have dug into, but I was realizing that I really wanted um, product company experience again.

I really love Working on something and then seeing it later and just being like, yeah, I made that. And, you know, getting to [00:28:00] think of the future when I'm making it and, and you try as an agency to think of the future, but it's hard sometimes. Um, when you just are going to leave in a week, the project and not potentially never see it again. And when you're going to be seeing it, you know, week after week, year after year, you're like, I really need to think about how to do this and make it not painful when I come back here. And, um, there's also just like. Some cool benefits of being at a product company. Um, like there's not the download everything about this project and then dump all of the information about this project kind of like experience.

And so it's kind of nice to just be like, ah, this information I learned a year ago is still useful to me because I still am going to be touching that code.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, it definitely feels way less bad to context switch. If you know that one day you'll come back.

Rissa Jackson: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: Okay. So. You decided that it's time to leave company two or company B. [00:29:00] We've used so many different, we've interchanged a couple of times. Uh, you've decided it's time and you're looking for more ownership, right?

You're looking for more. I want product. I want something that I'm going to kind of come back to. Um, how did you start looking for that job? Did you just start applying directly at places? Did you like open up your. Like LinkedIn, or I don't know how people find jobs these days. What'd you do? All

Rissa Jackson: I honestly got a bit lucky with my third job. I, um, happened to connect with the recruiter from this company. And I kind of assumed that when she connected with me, that she was going to like pitch the company. And I was looking a little bit at the company to see what she was, um, know, the face for, you know, representing. And I was like, Oh, this company sounds interesting. And it's like working with the tech stack. I want, you know, Laravel and Vue. Um, And so I messaged her and just kind of like, Hey, you know, tell me about this company. And I also thought it was funny that like connected with me, but hadn't tried [00:30:00] to immediately sell me on it.

And I was like, yeah, let's, let's see what's there. And we had a great conversation about it. It sounded like a great opportunity. And then we got to talk and I just really felt like the stars were aligning for this to be like a great, Place for me and was fitting kind of what I was looking for, um, you know, slightly bigger company, which can be a good experience to like, if you're working at a small company, really get to know everyone, which is great, but also like, you don't really have a chance to like move around departments ever.

So like company B sorry, company three, um, I got the opportunity to work on a couple different teams because engineering was like around a hundred people, which was bigger than, you know, company, uh, two's whole company. um, I got to see different parts of the code base and the product, like one team I was on with kind of like the core product, one team I was on with like the logistics or like [00:31:00] carriers and labels and shipping things.

And, Then another one was like kind of onboarding and making that like a good experience for merchants. So it was cool to see so many different parts of the company. And that was like a great opportunity of working at a bigger company.

Sam Huckaby: right. So I realized now that I've, I forgot to ask some questions from your university days, because one of the questions I want to ask about this company relates to your experience abroad during university. Um, So could you very briefly give us the highlights of your time abroad while you're in college?

And then maybe just, can you tell us or tell me, it's just me, uh, can you tell me if you felt like your experience abroad maybe brought something to the table when you're working in a company that deals with like, mailing and logistics.

Rissa Jackson: Yeah. Um, I lived in China for two years and taught English and it was a really great opportunity to see more of the [00:32:00] world. And there was such a great expat community there. So I felt like I was traveling like Europe while being there. Cause I met so many friends from all over. um, I definitely. I that I had a greater appreciation for how different countries can be, how hard it can be to ship and deal with customs in different countries. So when I was working on the logistics team, I was definitely thinking of those things while working through those problems. You know, we need to ship something to Australia. Australia is very cautious about what gets into the country because, you know, they want to protect you. They're borders and, you know, their wildlife.

And so those are things that like I became more aware of by traveling.

Sam Huckaby: Do you feel like your background, like you've been a lot of places, you've seen a lot of things. Do you feel like you often find that the experiences from your background are kind of relatable to the job that you're in? Or do you feel like it's more like hindsight is 2020? You don't notice them until after the fact.

Rissa Jackson: I would definitely say they're quite [00:33:00] relatable, uh, related to the job. Um, So one of the skills that I've been working on for a long time at this point, and it didn't come naturally to me, is public speaking. I have been working on that, you know, teaching English in China. Like, I feel like you kind of take on this almost persona when you're in charge of the class.

And, and then it's kind of similar to speaking on stage at a tech conference. You know, it's like, not, not you, but it's like a slightly different version of you that's on stage and that can be really fun and empowering. And, um, I've been working on that also just as a developer using those skills to speak to stakeholders, speak in meetings, do demos, um, especially talking to non technical stakeholders. One thing that I think is a cool opportunity for learning programming as an adult is you're so familiar with what it's like to not know all the technical jargon, all the [00:34:00] programming things. And it really helps with speaking to people who are not, you know, You know, currently technical and partner, you know, he has a different superpower.

He's been programming since he was 10. So he knows programming concepts like inside and out, and that's really cool too, but it did make it harder, I believe for him to teach me programming concepts because they were just so obvious to him and not obvious to me. And now that I understand them, I feel like there's a lot of power and being able to be like, I know. About those pitfalls, about those confusing things and be able to break that down for other people. And, you know, as developers, we have to talk to non technical people, at least some of the time, and it's great to have some of those skills.

Sam Huckaby: So I also happen to again, from the last interview that you have a more unique outside of work sort of hobby. Um, could you talk maybe a little bit about that [00:35:00] and then kind of maybe how do you think about work life balance? You're in company three at this point now, right? Um, so how have you been approaching work life balance?

I'm sorry, what's your, your motto, your, your vision for work life balance?

Rissa Jackson: Yeah. Um, my hobby that you alluded to is called partner acrobatics. Um, so if you've heard of a, like trapeze bar, like that trapeze is the apparatus for the trapeze artist, and then for me, my apparatus is another person. So I'll be doing a handstand on them or get thrown in the air and caught, or, you know, uh, do spins or flips. That is really fun hobby because I was similar to programming. I was not athletic. I didn't have any background as an adult to learn these things. And I just learned them from scratch and similar to my partner, if I had started when I was 10 or younger, you know, those people who've been gymnast or [00:36:00] cheerleaders or any of those skills from a young age, I would be better at this hobby and. also grateful in a way that I didn't start them earlier because I remember what it's like not to be able to do a handstand or not to be able to do a flip. when I'm teaching, I can, you know, relate to those students who are stuck in the same kind of pitfalls that I found myself in. And, um. Yeah, it's it's a really fun. a lot of tech people in partner acrobatics. I think partially because we all spend so much time on screens. And so a lot of us want hobbies that don't involve screens. And this 1 is such a great 1 to be completely present in the moment. Like, you cannot. zone out when you are, know, on a, doing a handstand on another person, like your life is in their hands and you have to be present to that moment and completely connected.

And [00:37:00] something really cool about that way of building trust with other humans and building trust in your own self, your abilities and growing more confidence in your body awareness and your body strength and flexibility. But, um, yeah, I think. It's so helpful for us to have work life balance by finding ways to get away from screens. It's partially why I haven't explored a lot of open source projects yet, and I would like to at some point. I do think those are really valuable. But I definitely want to make sure that programming stays fun, and It's like something I enjoy and look forward to, and I feel like a big part of that is making sure that I'm not programming all the time.

I, you know, shut down at the end of the day and get away from the screen and be around humans and look them in the eye and hang out.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, for sure. It's kind of like, um, kind of like ice cream, right? Like if you have ice cream every single day, You don't really want ice cream anymore. [00:38:00] I mean, I definitely know some people who, well, they don't eat ice cream every day. I know people that would program every day and that would just be their happy place.

And that's okay. Like that's a different kind of person. That's not me maybe.

Rissa Jackson: Honestly,

Sam Huckaby: Um,

Rissa Jackson: for them. I think it's delightful that they love it that much.

Sam Huckaby: but some of us actually need to go outside. All right. And I def, I also definitely remember a time when I couldn't do a handstand because that time's now, so,

Rissa Jackson: you ever want to learn, I can teach you.

Sam Huckaby: all right, maybe next time we're down in Texas, we'll, uh, we'll see about it. Maybe I don't know. So we're now at company three and company three is the last and final company, correct? And it is the company, uh, that you've had to just recently separate from due to some layoffs. Is that accurate? Yeah. So that's when you didn't choose to leave.

All right. But you're also the first person I've [00:39:00] interviewed. Who's experienced this particular experience. So I'm interested to hear, um, what's that like? Like, what's the, you wake up one day and you don't have, That same job, like, how did you handle that? What was, what was it like?

Rissa Jackson: Yeah. Um, so my company did a 20 percent reduction from all departments and it was definitely one of those things where it was a little surprising. Um, I, we were doing an all hands and I always joined that a little bit early and it wasn't starting immediately. And I was like, okay, that's, that's cool. interesting thing.

Normally, you know, we go early and there's someone playing music who's hosting it. um, then I saw that like this one was like mandatory and I was like, okay, something's happening. um, they let us know that like they were doing the layoffs and that we would be hearing back pretty immediately, which I had a meeting like [00:40:00] within 10 minutes of like that meeting ending. And it was definitely a little bit sudden. Like, um, it's hard to do a good layoff, I think. Um, I definitely get it. Like, you don't want to be a bad actor with, you know, your company information. But I was kind of sad that they had like kind of immediately wiped the computer. That meant that I, you know, lost photos.

You know, I'd worked at this almost two and a half years. And so, you know, there was like, Like coworker pictures or, you know, zoom calls, you know, when people were leaving teams or temporarily leaving the company or something like that, you would do like little calls with like backgrounds and, you know, just fun photos like that, that I don't have access to anymore.

And so there was a period of time where I needed to like cry and, you know, mourn the end of that job. And definitely gave myself some time for that, but also feel a little bit grateful [00:41:00] for the opportunity to have some time. a really rare thing to have access to. because of the layoff, I have severance and I have healthcare for right now.

And so I'm actually just, I am interviewing places, but I'm mostly taking some time to see what it's like. To just, you know, try some different things, um, doing more hobbies, trying more coding, fun projects that I wouldn't normally feel the time or energy for. so it's like a really great opportunity to just enjoy some of this extra time.

Sam Huckaby: Awesome. Well, I'm glad to hear that you're, that you're doing well during all that. Um, I think there's a lot of people that they go through a layoff like this and it's just like their whole identity was wrapped up, you know, like in that company. So hopefully people who are listening to this will hear your story and.

Recognize that it's just okay. Right? Like there's a new day tomorrow. [00:42:00] So that brings us to the big question at the end that I've tried to ask everybody. I've still not figured out a good way to word this question. Um, but where do you see yourself like in 20 years? Like, what is your, like, your dream job?

Like, in 20 years, you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish. And you're just kind of like, Okay. You've made it and this is it. Where are you?

Rissa Jackson: Well, uh, 20 years, I actually hope to not be working an actual job. Um, if you've heard of the concept of like fire or five before, yep. Um, I'm a big proponent of those. Um, it's partially why this layoff is not such a big problem is because I've been living below my means for a long time and saving a lot of money. so at some point I would like to hit, uh, what we call a fire number, fires, financial independence, retire early. Um, I want to hit that number and not have to work. And that doesn't necessarily mean [00:43:00] I will never code again or do any kind of job again. It just means that I could do whatever I wanted, when I wanted. And I'm really excited about that opportunity of like, just coding for fun and doesn't need to make money. And just, you know, doing all the hobbies I love and traveling. So probably in 20 years. will be a lot of not working much not working at all. I'm not sure what that balance will be, but to get there, I would love to, know, keep working as an individual contributor, get to, you know, senior level, maybe get to tech lead level, maybe someday get to like a manager level.

I really love working with people. I love understanding how You know, what makes them a good, uh, developer and how to set them up for success. My last company, we had some company wide hackathons and occasionally I was [00:44:00] the lead, like the team captain for them. And it was such a fun experience of, you know, pulling together people who I thought were like the best developers and then organizing them into mini teams and keeping track of like what they were doing and like, you know, just removing roadblocks. Um, and I got a lot of fantastic feedback from the developers on my team that I would be a good manager someday. And. So I think that would be really great to do eventually. And I'm, I'm still looking forward to a lot of career stuff before retiring, but yeah, my ultimate goal not needing to work.

Sam Huckaby: All right. Yeah. I mean, that's a good goal. Um, sort of the followup question. And I think it's kind of maybe you kind of wrapped it in that, that answer a little bit, but like, what are you doing today that you think is positioning you well? To live that kind of life or have that kind of roll.

Rissa Jackson: Um, I guess I'm always interested [00:45:00] in improving both my technical and soft skills, you know, to be a great manager. It's good to have a mix of both and I definitely want to be, you know, person who can like lead teams at some point. worked on, I helped start a nonprofit and I got to be president and vice president for two years each.

And I just really enjoy working with people, solving problems, um, and getting chances to be a leader at here and there. So I definitely am always trying to build up those skills. A lot of it is. You know, learning from people who've already gone down the path before, you know, you don't want to remake the wheel.

If people have good advice on how to be a leader, how to be a manager, I like to hear what they have to say. And it doesn't mean that I'm going to take their exact plan and copy it exactly. It's, it's pulling, you know, all these different ideas from people who've [00:46:00] gone on this path before me, and then making a. framework that's like going to work for me and use my skills correctly and be a good fit.

Sam Huckaby: Okay. Yeah, I like it. You're very like eloquent with the way that you talk about that. You should write a book. You should call it the superpower of not knowing. And then talk about learning how to like trailblaze behind people, or

Rissa Jackson: it.

Sam Huckaby: I don't think that's what it's called. Not trailblazing, but you get it. Yeah,

Do you think that there is anything, if someone, like if the perfect job was going to come up, like your next, your next big thing, what do you think that would look like? Like what are you looking for right now?

Rissa Jackson: it's a great question. Um, I still really enjoy product work. So I, I'm definitely leaning a bit more towards that if I can get away with it. Obviously I love Laravel. If I can keep working with that, I would love that. I'm open to doing React or some other framework on the front end, but Vue has been really [00:47:00] delightful to work with over the years. Um, as for like the company itself, um, things that are important to me are companies that are really open to, um, collaboration. Pair programming is really great. Mentorship and supporting that I think is really great, because those are great tools. Fantastic ways to level up all your developers and all your staff and companies that are really open to, uh, giving and receiving feedback.

Um, just making sure that like the people who are in the weeds, you know, down on the ground working on stuff are heard and, you know, listen to about, like what makes their job better. And that just kind of helps everyone succeed better when that is able to reach the people making decisions. So I think those are the kind of things I'm looking for, you know, a company that has a, you know, kind and caring culture. So I'll just keep looking for a good place like that.

Sam Huckaby: Awesome. [00:48:00] Well, if you're listening to this and you're looking for a Laravel developer, I guess check the description. I don't know what they're called, show notes. Sure. Her contact, her information will be there. Um, but yeah, that is, that's the end of my questions and I did record it this time. I can see the recording thing.

So we did it.

Thank you for coming in and talking to me again. It was awesome.

Rissa Jackson: Thanks for hosting and your wonderful questions. It's great talking with you a second time.