Kap Sevilleja - Soaring into Programming

Sam Huckaby: [00:00:00] First of all, thanks for taking your time or taking the time to come talk to me.

Kapehe Sevilleja: of course.

Sam Huckaby: I've been looking forward to it.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Me too.

Sam Huckaby: So I've heard, I've heard a bit about your background story from your talk at Laracon. So I feel like I know some of it, but I wanted to have a little bit deeper than that. So can you give me a kind of like, I know roughly when you started trying programming, but like, when would you say it was like the first time that you interacted with like computers just in general?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Um, in general, I did. mean, do you want to go like way back? Like when I was like

Sam Huckaby: Way back.

Kapehe Sevilleja: like, okay. Does, do you remember keen video game,

Sam Huckaby: Keen. Which platform was it?

Kapehe Sevilleja: And he, it was like commander keen and he would like,

Sam Huckaby: yeah.

Kapehe Sevilleja: was like a bird's eye view game and you like walked around. Um, we have one of those like super old, like computers in a storage room and keen was my game. [00:01:00] And then, and I played that all the time. And then of course, like just like the classic computer games, like paint and stuff, but like, that's like really my, that's like what I did with computers back then was like computer games and solitaire and paint. And,

Sam Huckaby: Nice.

Kapehe Sevilleja: then, you know, I got Facebook and MySpace and all those like fun customizations you could do with MySpace, but I didn't, oh, I did, I just remembered this.

I did take a It was like HTML and CSS course in high school, but it was like for a term. So it was like for six weeks and it was just like P tags and stuff like that. Like, Oh, an H2, the text is huge now. Like, that was pretty much it.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah. Okay, did either of your like parents have any like computer experience? Like why did you have that computer at home?

Kapehe Sevilleja: I don't know. Cause it was just for the kids. There were six kids in [00:02:00] my family and we all just like needed something to get our energy out when we couldn't go outside. Cause it was like too cold. Like it was snowing or something, but my parents never touched that thing. Like ever. My dad would it for finances, but it was once a month.

It was the first Sunday of every month. He would like use it for finances and like balancing their checkbooks, but never touched it. My mom never touched it ever. It was just for the kids.

Sam Huckaby: This was kind of like a toy.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: so you've grown up with computers kind of being a toy. You get to high school, you take a one semester HTML web development sort of thing. What did you, after you finish that like website course, like, Did it leave any sort of a mark on you or was that just like you finished it and you moved on and you forgot about it sort of thing?

Kapehe Sevilleja: I just remembered it now. So it didn't, didn't leave a mark, but I did do that. I mean, I had fun while I was doing it. I remember doing it, [00:03:00] but it was not something I did. I went into aviation. That was my degree like being a flight attendant. And I was going to get my pilot's license, but, oh, okay. But yeah,

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, easy, easy. Um, yeah, so was the HTML course you took in school, was that before or after you got a MySpace? Do you remember?

Kapehe Sevilleja: same time.

Sam Huckaby: time. Okay. Weirdly enough, MySpace has come up in almost every single one of these interviews I've done. Almost everyone.

Kapehe Sevilleja: it was a big thing for this generation, you know?

Sam Huckaby: True. True. I don't, yeah, I didn't really think about it at the time. Like, cause I had a MySpace and did all the customizations and it's just never like, it's never been something I thought about, but everybody else is always like, I got a MySpace and suddenly it just like unlocked something for them.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah. See, MySpace didn't do that for me. I just was like, Oh, I'm [00:04:00] changing the background on my or what did we call it? What was the, what was your profile page? It wasn't Timeline, that was always, I don't remember, I feel like it

Sam Huckaby: Just your page, maybe? I don't know. I remember the top four or the top eight or whatever, like the big thing. Okay. So you finish high school and you decide you're going to college. It sounds like you went to college, right? Um, so what was your plans with college? You kind of alluded to it just a minute ago,

Kapehe Sevilleja: So I went and got my associate's degree. I just wanted to kind of like get my prerequisites out of the way and I got that. And during that time, I got a job as a flight attendant and you don't need a degree to be a flight attendant. You can just like. Go and do it and that's it. But I always loved flying. I just really wanted to always be in the air. so being a flight attendant was always my dream. [00:05:00] So then I was being, I was a flight attendant and then my university actually offered an aviation science degree. So I did that and I didn't use it for anything. It's just my bachelor's degree.

Sam Huckaby: but you said you did want to go be a pilot at some point, or you considered it?

Kapehe Sevilleja: I didn't really want to like, Become a commercial pilot. I never wanted to fly for an airline, but I wanted to get my license and I probably will still do that. Like, I'll just get like my private pilot's license and just like do it for a hobby, but

Sam Huckaby: That'd be super fun. I've considered it as well, but I'm also terrified of heights, so I don't know how I'd do. But, so, you go to school, you get an aviation degree. Is there any computer related courses in that degree, like at all? Not even like a word course or anything? He wouldn't need that for

Kapehe Sevilleja: no, I mean the most like, like computer stuff, well, no, cause everything that's the thing with like aviation is everything can be done outside [00:06:00] of computers. It's all like in instruments and papers. So like you always have your. Um, your manual for the, for the aircraft, and then you also have your manual for being a pilot or a flight attendant, you can't rely on technology.

If like things go awry in the air, need to be able to land the plane without, you know, contact. Maybe you can't like contact traffic, air traffic um, or maybe, yeah. So like, we couldn't really rely fully on a computer, but we had our instruments that weren't computer. Yeah,

Sam Huckaby: interesting. Okay. I want to come back to your experience in college, especially in your study around this. So just kind of keep your finger on that. Cause I think, well, that'll be important later. Sorry. So you finished college and you go straight into the, where you're already in the aviation industry, essentially [00:07:00] at that point.

Kapehe Sevilleja: by the time I graduated, I was probably five years into, well, probably three to five years into my attendant career. So I was already like doing it.

Sam Huckaby: Okay. So already kind of doing it and you, you didn't have any like immediate plans to leave, right? Like that was. The dream job.

Kapehe Sevilleja: The dream job that I knew wouldn't be forever. So I knew in the future, something was going to have to change because being a flight attendant is hard, like leaving four of the seven days a week is like really tough and it's like really taxing on you, especially if you do a lot of like short flights and you're up and down a lot, it's just like a lot on the body.

So you're just like, I don't want to do this forever. Some people can, and that's great. I wanted to stay at home and I wanted to like, Not travel so much and the benefits are great, but you are on standby. So it's like, get on if there's open seats and that kind of is like, whatever.

Sam Huckaby: [00:08:00] Gotcha. So I know you've, you said a little bit of this on stage at Laracon, but sort of what was sort of the lead up to you deciding that this career wasn't going to work anymore? Like, cause you eventually did leave, obviously you're at sanity now. Uh, so you obviously left that, but could you kind of walk me through some of the process about what got you to the spot where you're like, it's time to go time to leave.

Gotcha.

Kapehe Sevilleja: yeah, I kind of talked about this at the Laracon talk, but I had a year at, my flight attendant job where I like the universe was telling me this job isn't for you. You should leave. Like a lot of bad things happen that year with like with that job specifically and like. incidences with like passengers and like, crazy.

And like pilots and all the, yeah. So I was like, ah, this probably isn't for me. I shouldn't keep doing this. I started looking around and I didn't want to go back to a university. I didn't want to like go back to [00:09:00] like, cause I had my aviation degree, but I also Didn't want to keep like leaving and like being in this high stress like job. So I found coding bootcamps and they were really popular back when I was looking. I mean, I feel like everyone was doing it at that time that I knew. And. I actually had a good friend who went to a coding bootcamp I don't even know where he's at now, but he loved it. And he was like, yeah, you should do it like weeks. And I didn't realize what I was getting myself into, but that's how I found it really was wanting to go back to four years of school and be able to completely change my career. having to do that.

Sam Huckaby: So when you say that you don't, you didn't want to go back to a four year. Is it because if you went back to school, you'd have to stay working as a flight attendant to finish that degree sort of thing?

Kapehe Sevilleja: I just didn't want to do four more years of school. I just wanted to like [00:10:00] move on and like find another career and teach me as quick as you can. I want to learn it quick and move on, you know?

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, you like, you served your time. You shouldn't have to serve your time again. Just because this didn't work out. Yeah, I get that. All right. So coding bootcamps are an interesting, like it was a very strange phenomenon. I feel like

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: like this window where bootcamps were like hugely valuable.

They were like before that they weren't a thing. Now. Lots of people do bootcamps, but like, you're not getting jobs right out of bootcamps quite the same way anymore. Um, so what was kind of your experience in that bootcamp? Like What sort of stuff did you do? What kind of people did you meet? Before

Kapehe Sevilleja: I'm still friends with the people that were from my cohort and they're all doing really good in the tech scene. You know, like a lot of people are working really cool jobs and, and They're all developers, you know, we're all [00:11:00] doing something in the tech scene. Like it worked out for us. Um, but it is a lot of work at once, you know, a lot in 12 weeks. I think the bootcamp that I went to focus on the right things, like we were focused on react and at that time react was, I mean, it still is like you learn react and you're kind of good, you know? Um, we did JavaScript of course. We learned a little bit of Angular in Vue, just dabbled in it. Like this is also around and that was cool.

That was fun. And then I graduated and I got job like six weeks after I graduated for a, um, agency pretty much.

Sam Huckaby: we get to that job, would you say, I have kind of this theory about why boot camps have changed the way that they have. I'm just wondering what your opinion is. Um, so I feel [00:12:00] like when boot camps first got started, they were really expensive. They were really intensive and they were kind of small. And so it kind of forced the people that went through boot camps to be like good at what they did.

And I feel like today boot camps have reached a point where they've driven the cost kind of down to try to open it up for more people because you make more money if more people, you know, sign up and they've driven, maybe the requirements down a little bit because not everyone feels like they can commit that much time.

And so what we've kind of created is sort of like this silver ticket to like a good career. Do you think that's kind of what's happened with bootcamps?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah. There was always like this promise that nobody said, nobody said, Oh, you're definitely going to get a job outside of a bootcamp. Nobody ever said that to me, there was like this, promise almost that you would like, Oh, You'll learn everything that you need. I think, [00:13:00] I think what's happening people are thinking it's like a quick fix and it's not like, there's a lot that goes into it.

Yeah. They taught us for eight hours in a day, but you had to go home and And do like six more hours on your, like on your own. a lot of people didn't do that or are not doing that still. And they go in there like, oh, we'll teach me what I need to know. And where's my job, you know? And some bootcamps also provided like, like placement help.

And I think people took that as that's my guarantee into a job. No, it was more like, Hey, here are some Tips on how to get jobs. So I went to a bootcamp that wasn't in the state that I lived in. And so I needed support outside of. And so that's when I started going to like meetups in the state that I lived in, and I started reaching out to the tech scene there, but I think the [00:14:00] expectation of, I need to, like, you owe me a job if I go to your school was kind of, it wasn't right.

It wasn't the good expectation for people to have.

Sam Huckaby: So you mentioned like going to like meetups and like conferences and stuff. Were you doing that while you were at the bootcamp or did was that more like right afterwards?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Right. As so we did our first project. In the first six weeks, and it was like a personal project and you did all the code yourself and like front end, back end, all of it. it was like around October of 2017 that, that project was done. And I took that project to a meetup in Las Vegas and I presented it at like a demo day. And I was like, I'm building this. I'm going to a bootcamp. And I went back every. They had it once a month and I went back every month and I presented the stuff that I was doing at that meetup. And so by the time I was done with the meet, or by the time I was done with the bootcamp, that meetup knew me [00:15:00] well, knew what I was doing and what my goal was.

So I got a job from that meetup.

Sam Huckaby: Nice. Okay. Well, that's a great segue. So first job from a meetup. That's like the dream, right? Um, can you tell me more about like, how did you, how'd you get connected? How did, what was like the process? Like I've heard from other people, like sometimes people reach out with jobs and it's like, how do I know this isn't fake sort of thing, but can you tell me more about like that experience?

Kapehe Sevilleja: So I went, was like December, so it was the third meetup I went to and I presented to everyone, like I could not be shy. I could not be like, Oh no, don't look at my code. I had to like, just put myself out there and I'm like, you all are building amazing stuff and look at my little like project I'm doing, I think because I did that.

I naturally people want to like cheer that on and be like, Oh my gosh, like this is your first project. That's amazing. Oh, you're still going. This is your second project. Like, [00:16:00] keep going. And then the third one comes around and they're like, Oh, wow, like you're improving. And so like, they see this, like, it's almost like a resume that I'm building, but with yeah. Projects with like a physical, like demonstration of it. So nobody had to read about it on a piece of paper. And so by the time that December rolled around and a company was looking for, um, junior software engineer, they were like, Oh, remember cap that was presenting this last week. We should reach out to her. But they actually reached out to me at the end of the meetup in December. So it was like in person. It wasn't like, like a DM or something from a recruiter. And you're like, is this real? You know, it was. Face to face and they're like, no, can we like meet next week? And the meeting, the first interview was scheduled at the meetup. So like everything happened in person and it was just like. Very natural. And like,

Sam Huckaby: Nice. We really lost that with COVID.

Kapehe Sevilleja: [00:17:00] I know,

Sam Huckaby: Um, So very first interview at the meetup. So he like, Comes up to you, says we want to hire you, and then just like pulls you into a back room and gives you a quick interview, or?

Kapehe Sevilleja: no, no, no. He, we scheduled the first meetup in, or scheduled the first interview at the meetup. So it was like the following week.

Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. Okay. Awesome, And so, that was your, this would be your first ever programming related interview then, right? So how was the experience of interviewing for the very first time as a software developer?

Kapehe Sevilleja: So I was super clear with like my skillset and like, Hey, I'm just like barely starting out. Like, I don't know a lot, but this is what I do know. so all we did was open up my GitHub and look through my projects and they're like, Tell us about your project. And so weren't trying to like trip me up on anything.

They weren't trying to like make me whiteboard anything. Cause they're like, she'll learn. Like she's in that, that mode right now [00:18:00] of like, I want to learn anything. And so that's kind of how they approached it was show us what, you know, show us what you've built and, they were impressed. They liked it.

Sam Huckaby: Nice. It's really interesting. I interviewed Rissa Jackson and she calls what you're describing here the superpower of not knowing. It's, it's really true though, right? Like there's like a period in your life Development as a software developer, where you can be like, I don't know.

And you don't have to worry about people getting mad because everyone knows that you don't know. It's like, did you feel like that was really freeing? Or do you feel like that was more limiting when you were doing this interview when you had to say, I don't know,

Kapehe Sevilleja: Definitely freeing, but I also, cause it's scary when you're like around Engineers who have been developing for like 15 years or like the CEO of the company that I worked for, he was like years into it. I'm like, what? Like you've seen it all, you know? [00:19:00] And that can be very intimidating, but I, I never backed down on being I'm not really willing to learn anything like, yeah, I don't know that because I'm like super new to all this. So like you see is what you get, you know, like I'm not going to try and like sugarcoat it and say, Oh yeah, well, I've been doing this for five years. I've seen every bug. It's like, you know. I'm like six months into this and I've built three projects and that's it. But look at what I've done in six months, you know, actually at that point it was 12 weeks, look what I've done in 12 weeks. And then they're like, wow, okay. 12 weeks. That's it. Let's keep you learning on. And so I was just like, what are you doing? And I was like, I'm, I'm working on whatever we're building with, you know? that was like a good segue into what they were doing because they were an agency. And so we built with view, with React on WordPress.

We built on anything, like whatever the project was already built on, we [00:20:00] kind of like picked that up and had to figure it out. And so that made me learn so much. And I think they liked that. I was just like, so eager to learn. It worked. I mean, I had a great time there.

Sam Huckaby: yeah, agencies are like a really interesting Position for a developer to be at. Um, so with an agency, you're, you're changing clients pretty regularly. I'm assuming you're, like I said, you're building on top of everything. Um, are there any like crazy stories from your time at this agency?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yes. I mean, I didn't

Sam Huckaby: Are there any crazy stories you can legally tell me?

Kapehe Sevilleja: um, we would work really long hours. That was like our biggest thing because there was always like a new deadline. So I had breakfast, lunch, and dinner almost every day with my team and we'd take Sundays off. But I mean, we got, we got really, really close. Yes. And. We [00:21:00] had a lot of fun and it was kind of like, you know, like college days, like everyone just like studying together in the library, but we're like building projects together and, you know, and then we go on little like client visits together and we meet them and they're like, Oh, so this is a team that's building our website and we're like, Oh, this is the client we're building for, you know, and so. just had a lot of fun. It was a lot of like, hacking away for hours, but it was a lot of hours. It was, but yeah,

Sam Huckaby: Okay, what would be some qualities or characteristics that you'd look for in someone to be in a close knit team like that with you? If you were gonna, if you're gonna go back to an agency and you're gonna have your own team, what would be the sort of kind of person that you'd want to bring on to a team like that?

Kapehe Sevilleja: honestly, like someone in their like early years, that's like willing to learn anything and [00:22:00] isn't really opinionated really on things yet. Like, Oh, I, I can't build just in react or, Oh, I can't. use Vue. to learn all these things and it's that, that person that doesn't really have an opinion on what they want to use.

They can just be like, okay, I'll figure it out.

Sam Huckaby: Okay, would you want any like seasoned senior people or do you think you'd rather have all early like newer people.

Kapehe Sevilleja: So we had a cool mix. We were a very tiny team. There was three developers. One was probably, he'd probably been coding for 15 years. One was about five years, but he was like coding was the language he grew up on, like he was brilliant, but had been doing it for about five years, was probably even better than the 15 year, guy. And then there was me. So there was three of us, one doing it forever, one where it just [00:23:00] like everything just made sense to him. And one me that was just like, tackle anything, you know, like that really like excited. So I feel like a combination of that, like seasoned, opinionated, um, everything just makes sense. And someone who's eager to learn anything, you know, it was a good combo. We had a, we built some really cool things.

Sam Huckaby: Were there ever any thing, any other, any times where a client came to you with an ask and you guys had to say no to it?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Not that I know of everything that made it to me was a yes at that point.

Sam Huckaby: That's fair. so this is your first job as a software developer and you've, you've obviously you're growing a ton at this point. What is it in your career? Like what's, can you kind of describe the point where you say to yourself, I think it's time to look for the next job

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yes.

Sam Huckaby: like, what was your thought there?

Kapehe Sevilleja: really wanted to get into education because I had been in my last two years as a flight attendant, I was a flight [00:24:00] attendant instructor. so every year when you're a flight attendant, you have to go back. And pretty much be tested on all of our drills, like evacuation drills, CPR, using an AED, like all that kind of stuff.

You have to prove that you can still do that. Otherwise you're not fit to fly. Um, and I really liked that. I liked those 2 years of, like, the education part and, um, Okay. Why do we do this when we want to evacuate a plane? You know, you know, like, so there was always like a why, and I liked finding that reason and like teaching people. So to do that. And Auth0 was hiring for a, called a D content engineer. And so it was a technical writer. I was writing blog posts, um, on Auth0 stuff. I was like, that's, uh, teaching, you know, that's education. That's teaching people how to use Auth0 with what I've been doing is [00:25:00] at this agency is like using every different platform, Auth0 can go on all of these platforms that I've been learning. So now I kind of know how to like use the Auth0 product with all these different things. And so it kind of like worked. It was like the perfect next segue for me to get into like the education thing, a product that can go on anything.

Sam Huckaby: Nice. So now is when I want to go back. To your college day stuff, you'd said that one of the things that you spend a lot of time kind of learning, but also just with aeronautics in general, sort of this idea that you have to be able to do stuff without a computer, right? You have to be able to fly by instrument.

You have to be able to look outside. You have maybe not look outside so much. That's not always a good option, but like, you have to be able to kind of understand the underpinnings of why things are going on when you're flying a plane. Do you think that that? Yeah. influenced you as you started to build your career as a software developer?

Do you feel like you kind of had that drive to understand why things worked the [00:26:00] way that they worked?

Kapehe Sevilleja: I could see that. I mean, I've never thought of that, but I mean, I know how an airplane works. I know why it flies. I know how to read a weather map and like, Oh, that little, little point on the weather map. What does that mean? And I like want to like figure it out. cause you have to, you can't just fly.

You can't just fly. Like you have to know what you're going to do. You have to know where you're going to go. You have to have a flight path. You have to have a beginning and end. You have to have, you have to have a plan and. Um, especially at my bootcamp, every project we did, there was always a plan before we started. You know, there's always a wireframe. There was always what's the end product. What's our goal. What's our MVP. And so, yeah, like the correlation between the two makes sense.

Sam Huckaby: And do you feel like when you get to Auth0 too, right? You're, you're building content, but you can't just content, right? You've got to have a goal, a starting place.

Kapehe Sevilleja: I. I've always taken the [00:27:00] like mindset of you have to know this much to teach this much. And it's like, same with like flying a plane. You have to be, you have to expect this much to happen, but really only this much is going to happen. Like you're really not going to have landing. That's very rarely going to happen, but you have to know what to do if it does happen, you know? So, yeah.

Sam Huckaby: Okay. So you're at Auth0 now. It's your second job. Um, you said technical writer, but we're still counting this as software because it's a software company, right? So you're still, you're still probably developing. Well, I guess let me ask, were you building stuff on the side in order to make the content, the technical content make sense?

Kapehe Sevilleja: pretty much every article I wrote had like a demo app. So almost every, probably 80 percent of it, I would have like a demo app that was doing something that would excite someone, you know, like a portfolio, a recipe page, a, store, you know, like different [00:28:00] things. But yeah, I was always building these demo apps.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah. Would you say? Like, compared to, like, the agency, you were building almost the same amount, since you're building something new every single time.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah, I mean, pretty much. So technically, yeah, because there was always something new to like work on had to get finished and there was a deadline and I had to get it done and move on to the next thing. It wasn't like, I'm, I'm working at a company, a one product and I work on this one product forever. So yeah, that like that change of, like what am I working on? So rapidly changing was, you know, I was used to it at that point. I

Sam Huckaby: How would you say you do with context switching in, like, a developer role?

Kapehe Sevilleja: think I do well, but I feel like it's getting worse. I have to like, like I have to sometimes just focus on one thing. And if something changes, if anything changes, I sometimes get [00:29:00] distracted too easily, but I need to work on that. It used to be better. That's for sure. And I could like bounce around and like work on different things, but now I have to focus. And I just did two fingers like a flight attendant. I didn't realize exits are this way.

Sam Huckaby: It's all good. We're staying, staying in context here. Um, interesting. Yeah, context switching is always a really interesting topic, I think, for everybody. I don't know. Maybe as we get older, we just can't context switch as much.

Kapehe Sevilleja: I getting worse for me, but I used to be really good at it, but I'm managing it. Sounds like a problem, like a drug for me. Like I can't look at anything else.

Sam Huckaby: I've got it under control. I can stop whenever I want.

Kapehe Sevilleja: want

Sam Huckaby: All right. So you're doing technical writing at Auth0. Is this, is this pre pandemic or post pandemic

Kapehe Sevilleja: pre

Sam Huckaby: at this point? Pre pandemic. So are you in [00:30:00] office then

Kapehe Sevilleja: no

Sam Huckaby: as a technical writer? No. Interesting. What was your first company? Your first company was not remote.

You said you ate meals with your team.

Kapehe Sevilleja: I went in for that one.

Sam Huckaby: Okay. So first company, not remote. Um, this company is remote. What would you say was some of the things that were hardest to sort of adjust when you're going from a in person position to a remote position?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Um, time zones was really hard and like saying something on Slack and not getting an answer for a day, you know, whereas my team at the previous company, I look up and they're there and I'm like, Hey, this right? And so I could move a little bit quicker because if I was stuck on something, I could just get the answer and move on. Um, remote work that little bit of, like, delay. But I do think remote work can, remote work made me work better. Because [00:31:00] we would, we would goof off a lot in person. we'd go like, go on another walk. Ah, let's go look at this. You know, and we would just kind of like goof off. And I mean, I think, With remote work, I can focus a little bit more because I'm not so distracted by all my friends, you know, in the office and go get a drink.

Let's go, you know,

Sam Huckaby: Yeah. I almost wonder if maybe that's why context switching gets more difficult now that we've all moved to remote. I don't know. We'll, we'll continue to adjust that theory as we go. so yeah, so technical writer, Auth0. You're fully remote now. What time zone was the rest of your team in?

Kapehe Sevilleja: three hours, two hour, were in Argentina.

Sam Huckaby: Okay.

Kapehe Sevilleja: So

Sam Huckaby: I don't know what time they're in either.

Kapehe Sevilleja: know. I think they're like three hours ahead of, cause I was Pacific. Um, I feel like they're three hours ahead of me, which is not the worst. Um, I work at now, there's a lot in Europe. So that's like, I mean, they're ending when I'm starting, [00:32:00] so that's even longer, like bigger of a delay, but it all just like ends up working.

Sam Huckaby: What would you say was the biggest challenge as a technical writer? Like I, I work with technical writers. I'm sure you also work with technical writers. How can I make. like a technical writer's job easier or better? Like, how can I care for that person better?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Hmm. I mean, it's always tough to like know what to write, like, like what to write about. And then once you figure out what you're going to write about, like, is this the right project that I should be building for this? Like do people care about this demo? Am I saying the right thing? So there's like a lot of like, everyone learns in a different way.

Everyone needs to like. Be handheld on like some code and not other code, you know, and so it's kind of hard to like, write for the greater audience. So I think like a good way to help like a technical writer now is give ideas like, Oh, I saw this and, I [00:33:00] saw this article and this really helped me learn because it did this way.

Or, um, I really liked when you did When you out why we wrote this function or, you know, like, guess just like feedback because everyone learns in a different way. And if you can help them in the way, maybe you learn, they could write some styles that way, some styles in a different way.

Sam Huckaby: Interesting. I'll just keep that in mind. We just had a technical writer start at my job. So I'm like trying to figure out how I'm gonna get to know him and help him out.

Kapehe Sevilleja: give ideas for demo apps. That's also a really hard one to like figure out, like, kind of app can I build that people would care about?

Sam Huckaby: Well, thanks. All right. So we must now continue on. So you're not at Auth0 now. So where do you go from Auth0? And why do you decide to leave?

Kapehe Sevilleja: now I really want to do more education. And so DevRel is picking up at this [00:34:00] time and it's kind of. Becoming the hot new job, you know, and everyone wants to get into DevRel. I wanted to get into DevRel. Um, and because I'm a technical writer, the only content that I'm creating is written content. I was like, Oh, I want to like make videos and I want to go speak at conferences and like, that sounds so fun. Um, Auth0 was not hiring for that position. Um, so I started. Building like my own resume, my own DevRel resume. And I opened, I like created my own YouTube channel. I started applying to like conferences. so by the time I applying for a DevRel position, I'm like, this is all the stuff that I've done, but it was all like on the side. and then Sanity came up and that was right in the middle of the pandemic. I started July of 2020. Um, but yeah, and I've been there four years and like four months now

Sam Huckaby: A sort of interesting fun fact. [00:35:00] So, during your phase where you were going to all these conferences, you went to Angular Denver.

Kapehe Sevilleja: and I emceed

Sam Huckaby: And I was actually at, I was at Angular Denver. Um, so whenever I saw you, like, come up through the timeline, I was like, hey, wait a second, I recognize her.

Kapehe Sevilleja: yeah. Cool.

Sam Huckaby: So, tiny world. What would you say was the most difficult thing when you started speaking at conferences and or emceeing at conferences?

What do you think was the hardest thing for you to kind of get used to?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Um, like, ah, like creating talks. And like creating that CFP again, like with writing, you know, like what do people care about? What do people want to hear and creating something that people will remember for not forever. Like, I mean, I hope so, I hope forever, but at least for a little bit that like, you kind of leave an impression on them. It's [00:36:00] also really scary to get on stage. I'm like not used to it. And I've done it so many times. And then every single time I, I like. I'm really pumped and I'm excited. I'm like, yeah, I can do this. And I'm standing backstage and my heart is racing that I like, can't even see straight. I'm like, oh my gosh, like I'm fine.

But my heart is just racing. So like, you never get used to it. Like Laracon backstage. I was like, not okay. I'm just like, kind of like trying to find my Zen and I'm like, it's okay. You're fine. And actually like. exercises that I do that kind of like calm my heart, but my heart will just race like a million miles an hour.

And I, that's just what

Sam Huckaby: What was, was Laracon the biggest conference you've spoken at or no?

Kapehe Sevilleja: one of the, I feel like three ish about that size.

Sam Huckaby: What were some other ones that you spoke at?

Kapehe Sevilleja: My very first one was RxJS live in Las Vegas and it was in [00:37:00] a movie theater. And I, I did observables, and it was Game of Thro Game of Thrones themed. And I was not a Game of Thrones watcher, but I had watched like two seasons of it, so I'm like, I have some context. But people will love it because it was very popular at that time. And I remember like Ben Lesh retweeted it and I'm like, Oh my God, Ben Lesh just retweeted my talk and I was like, so excited. Um, but that was my first one. Um, I've spoken at NextConf. I'm speaking at NextConf coming up in a couple of weeks. And I've spoken at the ones prior, um, angular Denver. I did emceeing. Um, I think there's so many, there's like a period that I did one, like every couple of weeks. Um,

Sam Huckaby: wow.

Kapehe Sevilleja: but yeah,

Sam Huckaby: Do you think, do you think only people who are going to [00:38:00] DevRel should be looking to do speak talks at conferences? Or like, who would you think? Would benefit from giving a talk.

Kapehe Sevilleja: everyone, I think everyone should speak. Um, it's scary. Don't get me wrong. Like I am not to be like, oh, everyone should talk at like. help boost your confidence and you will like grow as a person, you know, like it's scary for me. And every time I do it and every time I submit, I'm like, I'm never doing this again. I am never doing this again. And then I do it again because, cause it's like, I don't know. It's a different way to, at code. It's a different way to look at the audience that you're creating code for, you think about things differently because you're, you're having to present an entire project or an entire like feature that you've worked on in 20 minutes and you're like, but this has taken me six months. Don't you want to know like everything, you know, um, [00:39:00] But it makes you just think different differently. It makes you approach something differently. And maybe during your talk, you find while you're like using the feature that you built or the project that you've built, you're like, actually, I don't like how that works.

And so you like go back and you adjust it while you're still creating your talk. But I think everyone should give a talk. And I think everyone should like go on stage at least once and like, Show us what you're building. Show us what like gets you excited. Cause I don't know if you remember from my Laracon talk, the flame, like, what does your flame do?

And everyone in the audience wants your flame to grow. And everyone wants you to feel like, like what you're saying is the most important thing in that moment. Cause it is, we're all here to listen to you. We're not hoping that you like mess up and that like the demo gods are not in your favor. Like nobody wants that.

Everyone wants you to like succeed. And that's like, the cool part is. We're here as a community supporting each other and it feels cool to be supported, but I also like [00:40:00] supporting everyone else doing it. So like, yeah, like submit, let us like, let us come see you speak, you know?

Sam Huckaby: Nice. I think as someone who hasn't done any talks, I've never done it. I have emceed at conference before though. Um, but have you submitted any talks that weren't accepted that you were really bummed out? They weren't accepted.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yes, but I do not know.

Sam Huckaby: That's fine. Just the fact that it's happened.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah,

Sam Huckaby: I feel like that's, that's like one of the key things. I feel like maybe it's just me that keeps me from submitting talks as I'm like, I could submit a talk idea, but they won't like it, and then it'll be a rejection, and then I'll have been rejected. So if I don't submit the talk, never rejected.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Also, it's not against you. just that. They've had so many submissions that they'd have to say no to somebody. Like, don't, don't take it personally. You should submit and I'll, I'll watch your talk.

Sam Huckaby: [00:41:00] All right, I'll keep that in mind. I want to hold you to that. Um, I've been thinking about some talk ideas, so we'll see. So, you're now at Sanity. What does sort of a day to day look like at Sanity for you?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah. So, I do a lot of like, I do every six weeks I do a virtual meetup. Um, where it's all about community and what community members are building with sanity. then we bring a sanity employee in to like either talk about a new feature or talk about a cool way that you may not know you can build with sanity. Um, so I do that kind of stuff. I do, I'm in charge of swag. So if want any swag, um, I'm in charge of, we have an ambassador program. At Sanity, we have the Slack community. I'm in there like saying hi to people and cheering people on. Um, just like answering questions. Like people will DM me and be like, Hey, I have this with my project.

Can you help [00:42:00] me? And they'll like send me their code and I'll look at it and we'll hack away at it together. But it's a lot of just like community interaction and making sure people are feeling supported and. Like that there, you know, that their project is cool and we're excited about it because I don't know, I like, I like sanity a lot as a product and to see people winning with it as well is like exciting to me.

And it's not just like, Oh, it was just my job. No, it's like, Oh, that's a really cool use case. Show me what you did. Like, I'd love to see that. And so then I, I get them on stage at our meetup and they show all of us. So it's like really fun right now. We're working a lot on like next JSConf cause we're all going to be there.

So we're having like a, a pre party we're having, uh, three of us on stage at the conference. So there's just like a lot going on, a lot of like logistics there. So. All that stuff right now.

Sam Huckaby: Do you feel like you're doing less or [00:43:00] more like programming now that you're at Sanity? Since it sounds like this role is broad.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Um, to be way more before it's kind of about half and half now. Like before I was doing a lot of like demo apps and a lot of like videos and written content. Um, but now it's moved more into like, like community rather than like DevRel because it used to be DevRel now it's community, uh, like developer community manager is the title.

So it's like, yeah.

Sam Huckaby: What is the thing you're most excited about at Sanity right now?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Like to the product. Or what we're working on.

Sam Huckaby: Just your job in general. What's got you excited right now?

Kapehe Sevilleja: I really love NexConf. And I love that for the past, like, three, four years, we've, Sanity has, like, really pushed to be there. this year we've really pushed to be there. And I just, like, I don't know. The vibe [00:44:00] of NexConf is really fun to me. And just, like, Everyone's coming together to, cause I, I mainly build with Next and Sanity.

That's like my favorite. Like if I do a demo app, I'm going for that one. And so to go to the conference of the, of the framework that I use the most is like really exciting to me. So

Sam Huckaby: It's really funny, like in my own experience, like I've tried to build a blog a couple of different times and we all do it. It's just one of the hazards of being a programmer. But I always ended up getting like, I almost always go back to sanity because like everything else just kind of stinks. And then even one of my coworkers at Beyond Identity, like I forget what I had said something about, like this one I was telling people I was going to Laracon and I, they were asking what I was doing.

which talks I was looking forward to. And I had, I had a couple of that I'd picked out. And well, yours was one of the talks I was very interested to listen to. And uh, one of my course like, Oh Hey, isn't she from sanity and I love sanity. Sandy's the best.

Kapehe Sevilleja: sanity[00:45:00]

Sam Huckaby: This it's, it's great. yeah. This interview not sponsored by sanity by the way.

Kapehe Sevilleja: it's not. I mean, if you, if you want, I've built so many blogs with sanity. Uh, come on over, I'll help you out. Yeah,

Sam Huckaby: Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. Right now. No blogging in my current,

Kapehe Sevilleja: yeah,

Sam Huckaby: current plans.

Kapehe Sevilleja: do other types, yeah.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. Maybe. I don't know. I'll let you know. Um, all right, but now we've come to the more difficult questions. So your trajectory to get to programming has been incredible. You've seen a lot, you've done a lot. Where do you kind of want to be in like 10 or 20 years?

Like, what's the role that you want to be in and what do you want to be doing

Kapehe Sevilleja: Did you say 20 years?

Sam Huckaby: 10 or 20 years? I don't know. We're not that old.

Kapehe Sevilleja: think that far ahead. Um, I like, I like where I'm at. I like, I mean, the two [00:46:00] words together, developer marketing sounds like everyone gets a little like. You can't mark it to me, you know, but I, love to code. I love like figuring out problems and like, having a bug and then you fix it. And you're like, Oh, that feels so good.

Like, it's like cleaning a room. Like you have a mess and then you clean up. You're like, Oh, that feels so good. how bugs feel to me. It's like, Oh, that feels so good. Even though took you like. hours. And you're like, it was a stupid typo, like, I hope to always be in some sort of like developer realm, like I'm either doing demo apps or I'm helping people with like their projects, that plus I love working with people. And when you work remote, you. You kind of like, you do, you lose that like human connection. And I think COVID did a number on all of us, you know, and we all just like, [00:47:00] whether we like it or not, we all craved to be around each other. You know, like I have to like, you have to eventually see people like you have to. And whether, I mean, I can be quite introvert, but at some point you have to like, see life, you know, and like, see the world. And so, for me, I just, I just want to be in some development community type thing for the rest of my career. Whether it's like, head of DevRel one day, or, like, VP of developer marketing.

I don't know if anybody has a job like that. Cause I don't think that like that type of stuff exists. Cause usually like developer marketing stop stops at DevRel and then like head of DevRel, but like, like, I feel like we're expanding more because developers have a certain way. So like that they want to be spoken to.

I know that because if somebody tries to market to me, I'm like, I don't care about your project or your product. Like [00:48:00] using what I'm using. Like, I don't need another thing to learn, but sometimes there is a better thing and you have to like, find that, you know, but I hope to always just be in a developer and a community type thing where I'm around people.

Cause I love people. I love being around people. then also always able to like be around code and that kind of stuff.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, that's good. And so our community is kind of becoming more Not, not like community, like the smallest one, but like the human race really is sort of becoming programmers, like just kind of the world we live in. So that would be an exciting space. So then the followup question, and this is the equally hard question, and this is like the test of everything, right?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Okay.

Sam Huckaby: You mean, I gave you the questions. It's not a surprise. Some of these questions have been sort of surprising, I guess. What are you doing right now that's sort of helping you get better to reach that goal of being in that position [00:49:00] in 10 or 20 years?

Kapehe Sevilleja: um, there's a lot of like risks you have to take and there's a lot of like kind of Experiments that you have to do, you know, like does this work? Does this not work? Whether it be with code because there's always like the two aspects of the things that I want to do The development side and the community side, like the stuff that we do on the community side, like the people side doesn't work and we're like, okay, that initiative didn't work.

Nobody cares. Like, let's stop that. and sometimes things stick and they like, people really like it. so. Right now, in order to like grow for myself, it's like, you have to be able to like take that risk and think of the new idea and think of something that's like a little more sparkly and fun and people want to like be around. That's not just like the average, Oh, here's, here's how you do this. You know, it's, here's how you do this. And I don't know, you know, like, [00:50:00] and that's what we're figuring out is that next fun risky thing that people want to like be around. You try, you experiment, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but that's what I'm doing right now is taking risks.

Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: Risky experiments. Awesome. What are some risky experiments you're trying right now?

Kapehe Sevilleja: So this isn't like a risky experiment, but it's an experiment, one that I've never seen done. I don't know when this video will be launched, but if this is, Before next conf, we're doing this, this thing where, so sanity pairs with anything, like it goes with anything. Like you can put it with next, you can put it with view. we have a sock station and there are sanity socks and you grab a sanity sock and then you grab a, this is not risky. [00:51:00] not, but it's just a fun new experiment we're doing right now. Um, but you grab a sanity sock and you pick any of the other nine socks. of different companies that you think is your favorite thing to pair with Sanity. And so then you make your own like mismatched pair, but it's the perfect pairing. So you come to our booth and you make your perfect pair with Sanity and

Sam Huckaby: Nice.

Kapehe Sevilleja: company else is in there. In the little box of other socks. So, yeah,

Sam Huckaby: Nice. That's awesome. Dude, socks are like the, the in thing for developer gifts right now. When did that happen?

Kapehe Sevilleja: don't know, but we have Grok socks and people just go crazy for them. Grok is our query language and they're just like a funky design. They are like little neon green with like the Grok, like logo thing on it. love it and I love it. I have a pair and I'm like, I love these socks. So yeah, we're doing [00:52:00] the perfect pairing and it's fun.

It's like, you know,

Sam Huckaby: Yeah, gets you thinking. Like it has layers to it. All right. Awesome. What else is going on with you right now? What else is exciting outside of work?

Kapehe Sevilleja: Outside of work. Um, I now live in the Denver area and I love it. And my favorite thing outside of work in the whole wide world are my two babies. So they are the funnest age right now. And I hear that it just keeps getting funner and funner, but they're one and and they are just. a hoot. We have so much fun. I always tell them that they're my little besties. they're like, okay, mom, I get it. Actually, no, they love it. They're too little to embarrassed of me yet.

Sam Huckaby: It does keep getting better, though. Mine are 6 and 4. It just gets better. They'll still love being your little besties at 6 and [00:53:00] 4, too, by the way.

Kapehe Sevilleja: going to be my little besties forever. Sorry. Sorry, kids.

Sam Huckaby: If you watch this someday, if you listen to this someday,

Kapehe Sevilleja: yeah, I just, I love being a mom I hope my

Sam Huckaby: do you think being

Kapehe Sevilleja: go ahead.

Sam Huckaby: I was just going to say, do you think that Being a mom has been like maybe formative and how you approach building community and stuff.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Uh, yeah. I mean, I'm a little more like, Empathetic and like patient, you know, it's not like, Oh, like this didn't work. I'm, you know, frantic about this. It's like, Oh, well give it maybe one more month. Things might change, you know? Um, but yeah, maybe

Sam Huckaby: I just like thinking back to when ours were little and being like, yeah, you pooped in your diaper. Well, it happens. We'll get a new diaper,

Kapehe Sevilleja: to

Sam Huckaby: get a new pair of pants.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: Awesome.

Kapehe Sevilleja: But I hope they like [00:54:00] get into some sort of computer thing. Cause there's a lot of like cool building and cool like creation and that I hope they see like the magic in it. Cause development is magic.

Sam Huckaby: Yeah. Hopefully AI doesn't take that from us.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: That'd be such a bummer.

Kapehe Sevilleja: Yeah.

Sam Huckaby: all right. Well, hey, thanks so much for being willing to come chat with me. It's been a lot of fun.

Kapehe Sevilleja: lot of fun. Thanks for having me.

Sam Huckaby: We'll have to do it again sometime.

Kapehe Sevilleja: For sure.